This past Monday, Spinderella of Salt-N-Pepa, Mike Shinoda of Linkin Park and myself among others, participated in a panel discussion at UCLA that focused on the business workings and current state of Hip Hop. Before we launched into Q&A from the audience all of us were asked ‘What CD we were listening to in our ride?’ The audience seemed a bit surprised when I mentioned that in my CD deck was the 1981 album ‘JuJu’ by new wave/punk act Siouxsie & the Banshees. Songs like ‘Spellbound, ‘Monitor’ and ‘Into the Light’ brought back fond memories. More importantly the whole early new wave/punk scene was a very much apart of my early Hip Hop experience.
For those who wish to walk down memory lane, how could we forget when New Wave/Punk acts like Thomas Dolby, Tom Tom Club, The Clash, Blondie, The Thompson Twins, The Police, Depeche Mode, Human League, Tears for Fears and David Bowie to name a few were regularly heard within Hip Hop circles especially in many of our ‘hoods’.
No offense to Run DMC, who are often sighted as the first Hip Hop group to merge Rock and Rap, when we really go back and look at what was happening in the late 70s early 80s, we’ll find that there was an often under reported important conversation and cultural exchange that was taking place with hardcore b-boys from the South Bronx and the disenfranchised rebellious New Wave/Punk kids in downtown Manhattan on the Lower Eastside and in the Village.
It really began when acts like Afrika Bambaataa and Grandmaster Flash who were just starting to record records were starting to be invited to perform at some key downtown spots like the Mudclub or the Roxy which was frequented by punk/new wave kids. The parallels between the hardcore Hip Hoppers from the Bronx and the Rebellious Punk Kids soon became obvious. Both groups had reacted organically to a stale, formulaic music industry that was serving the public watered down disco and arena rock. The Blacks and Puerto Ricans in the Bronx embraced the classic James Brown Soul and Funk music of Sly and the Family Stone and developed Hip Hop, while their Lower Eastside white counterparts got into the British import punk and new wave.
Debbie Harry
People like Bambaataa, Fab 5 Freddy, Debbie Harry of Blondie and British New Wave icon Malcolm McClaren would wind up being key figures in Hip Hop’s first cross cultural exchange. The B-Boys from the Bronx would get nice gigs at the Punk/New Wave spots while the punk crowd would literally be granted safe passage to Bronx River or the PAL up in the Bronx. It’s important to note that this was not a natural occurrence which has often been erroneously stated, especially with the white kids coming up to the Bronx. It was a deliberate attempt on the parts of folks who had mutual respect and vision to build with one another.
When you look back into time you’ll find that both the early Hip Hop and Punk/New Wave groups equally influenced each other. This admiration was reflected in Blondie’s pivotal song ‘Rapture’ where lead singer Debby Harry after being escorted up to a B-Boy party at the PAL club where Grandmaster Flash was playing gave props to Fab 5 Freddy as well as Flash who blew her away.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHCdS7O248g
Soon after you had people like Malcolm McClaren teaming up with 5 Percent cats like the World Famous Supreme Team who hosted a radio show to do songs like Buffalo Gals (which was named after a London clothing store-not the size of woman’s butts), ‘Hey DJ’ and ‘Hobo Scratch’.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DeTR8n7eTU
History will show that others like the punk rock group known as the Beastie Boys would start to embrace rap and put out songs like Cookiepuss and go on to become Hip Hop’s first meaningful white act.
Pioneering groups like the Cold Crush Brothers would release songs like ‘Punk Rock Rap’ while Flash and his crew did songs like new wave influenced songs like ‘Scorpio’. Bambaataa himself would go onto to form a group called Time Zone and would record a huge song called ‘World Destruction’ with punk icon Johnny Rotten.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPHDQLuZaGo
Thomas Dolby
The whole time this was happening between the years 1979-1984, you saw the musical walls of segregation come down as artists from both genres would become familiar to both audiences. In other words during the early 80s you would hear Thomas Dolby’s ‘Blinded Me With Science’, David Bowie’s ‘Let’s Dance’, Devo’s ‘Let It Whip’ or Tom Tom Club’s ‘Genius of Love’ not only being played on urban radio, but also at popular Hip Hop night spots where playing them would help set off the party.
It was amazing to hear the types of early reactions to last year’s Mobb Deep hit song ‘Got It Twisted’. First, many younger folks had no idea that they had sampled the main riff that gave the song its entire flavor from Dolby’s ‘Blinded Me with Science’. When it was revealed, the reaction ranged from ‘Who in the heck is Thomas Dolby’? to ‘Wow, Mobb Deep is so adventurous, groundbreaking and experimental for going there and sampling a rock act’. For some the Thomas Dolby connection was strange for others who fondly remember those early days, what Mobb Deep did was a natural fit.
More importantly we need to remember that it was Thomas Dolby who actually stepped up and produced Whodini‘s first record ‘Magic Wand‘.In fact we need to also shout out folks like Trevor Horn and Rick Rubin who stepped over from the world of New Wave and Punk and got down on the production tip within Hip Hop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9fjN5lUgYo
We also need to keep in mind that these few examples I mentioned are just around the early Hip Hop scene in New York. If you go back and look at what was happening 300 miles away in California you will find similar exchanges between the early emerging Hip Hop community and the new wave punk sects. In places like Los Angeles where racial segregation is more pronounced and ethnic groups are really removed from one another, to see the early Ska and punk scenes make their way to early Hip Hop clubs and eventually see it reflected in the music with folks coming from places like South Central is significant.
Uncle Jamm’s Army
If anyone remembers back in the days when KDAY was jumping off in LA, then you know it was not usual to hear a Thompson Twins song or a Clash song being mixed and cut up by the famed Mixmasters at that time. It was not out of place to go to an Uncle Jamm’s Army set at the old Coliseum and here some of those aforementioned new wave groups. And of course Hip Hop was not out of place in those New Wave Punk clubs.
Today in the age of music industry consolidation and corporate radio owning multiple stations in a market has resulted in what is best described as music segregation. Industry proponents would argue and say its niche marketing, but really it isn’t. You have a group of ‘experts’ who sit around a table and devise elaborate marketing plans which run along the lines of station X owned by company A will go after Latino women 18-34 and will play a particular style of music with very little room for deviation. Station Y, also owned by that same company will go after older white men 25-54 and will also embrace a particular music genre.
This process goes all the way down the line until there are no more stations for the company to play with. The end results are a series of unintended consequences, some of which I touched upon in a previous column where I asked ‘When is Old School Too Old to Play’ as well as what I would call increased music segregation. Sure we can look at recent examples like Fred Durst and Limp Bizkit doing songs with Method Man or the upcoming Coachella Music Festival or a Warp Tour where there will be a healthy dose of rock and rap acts. However, the cultural exchange seems to be very one sided at best and contrived and forced at worse.
It’s one sided in the sense that you have rock oriented outlets with a predominantly white audience embracing Hip Hop. Yes, you can tune into a radio station like KROQ and hear rap alongside the usual rock offerings and lastly we have all the mash up projects, with the most noticeable being Collision Course with Linkin Park and Jay-Z. However, you will not see similar attempts in many urban outlets that target African American audiences. Yes believe it or not groups like Linkin Park as popular as they are are still relatively unknown in many Black circles where BET and commercial radio are the main conduits to things outside the community. I’m not sure what needs to be done to change that or if it even needs to be changed.
I guess I just yearn for the days when the Hip Hop and Punk and New Wave communities were known to each other and me, a Black kid from the Boogie Down Bronx, mentioning I like Siouxsie & the Banshees or the Split Endz is not met with shock and surprise because I defy a stereotype but with approvals or moans because everyone in the room has strong opinions about my choice of groups.
Yo Davey,..exactly my sentiments on the connections between HeArt_core Hip Hop and HeArt_core Punk,..by that means, that the techniques on spelling the mic is similar. I’ve always been in so called left_radicals Squats here in postfascist Hamburg and Berlin, where a lot is on by the tradition of Hardcore Punk//Crustpunk by political means, and DIY Hip Hop. The art of expression is different by symbolism and clothes attitudes, but on that way, by means the first Rap acts on the corner same like the audience is very popular in Crustpunk, so my Malcom McLaren influence being an ‘Intersex Guerillia’ on the occasion that the worth on lyrical intervention against the power of rulin elites has their twins.
Respect!
What do you think about the organization of ‘afropunk.com’????
punks say something is punk rock (when it’s clearly not) as a high compliment, an expression of admiration. I’m so happy to hear that we remember commonalities from those days. loved your post, so punk rock
My first exposure to hip hop was at an underground new wave dance club in Portland, ME called Zootz. As a suburban white kid growing up in the 80’s, Zootz was a haven for new, fresh and different. Regularly spun, Public Enemy, Tribe Called Quest, DeLaSoul, etc, with Sisters of Mercy, Talking Heads, Siouxsie& the Banshees, Yaz, SexPistols, etc. Never have found a similar experience since. Really enjoyed your piece.
Definitely do not agree. How is Hip-Hop like punk if it sold its soul and remains mainstream since like 94? Maybe it IS like punk and all the good “musicians” are underground, because anything on the radio and tv is absolute Garbage. Not trying to say blink 182, Green Day, Dropkick Murphys are punk as they are whiny mall rock or an irish gimmick, but I don’t see it. Chingy/Young Jeezy/or any nu school loser can’t hold a candle to Danzig era Misfits, Minor Threat or any of the unbridled aggression and melody some of the early punk had. Not to mention they’re playing instruments and writing their own songs not programming beats over clips of other artists.
Beautifully written. It was a special era and one I’m sad to admit we’ll probably never see the like of again. Our only hope is to seek musicianship and innovation at our local clubs and NOT from the radio or TV. The only channel worth the time is Palladia… it brings hope back into the void left when MTV/BET/VH1 evolved into a black hole.
Liked this a helluva lot, please keep it up. So important for our society for these different working class counter-cultures to cross-pollinate and integrate and mutate into some sort of beautiful monster that can obliterate segregation and white supremacy once and for all.
Only other thing I can really say is, Linkin Park? Why are they even mentioned in this article, and why does their bubble gum dressed-up as metal need to be spread? More like quarantined, yo.
Really enjoyed reading this- I never knew how the history of these two genres connected or that they even were connected at all.
Interesting article. Good read.
ill have you know me and a few of my friends are hip hop artists who come from a heavily punk rock background.. ive been to the last 8 warped tours and try to make rock the bells and paid dues as much as i can too. punk rock and hip hop music doesnt literally mix too well in my opinion but they are of the same spirit. i also include folk and reggae as also in the same spirit. i try to spread the concept when i can.
both punk and hip hop can be merged via ska and reggae. there’s a huge latino punk/ska/reggae scene in south central los angeles. google it.
Punk rock is about destroying the foundation of tyranny. Hip-hop is the antithesis of punk rock in how it glorifies violence, which is the very essence of tyranny. When Jello Biafra wrote in “The Stars and Stripes of Corruption”, “LET’S BRING IT ALL DOWN”, he didn’t advocate replacing one tyranny with his own–he advocated an end to corruption, an end to force, an end to violence.
To say that punk rock and hip hop are of the same spirit is to completely misses the point. Ludwig von Mises. Frederik Bastiat. These guys are punk rock.
good article. thanks for reminding all of the history. love depeche mod 🙂
NICE POST – JEEZY
Hip Hop taken over its the new meaning for music
we’re everywhere
Charney Hoffman must not actually listen to any hip hop music if all he thinks it does is glorify violence & not talk about the dismantlement of oppression & tryanny.
Public Enemy anyone?
This is so insightful and helpful as always… I remember the other day when we were chatting about the Five Percenters and their influence on Hip-Hop and you mentioned Malcolm McClaren … I was kind of drawing a blank because I did not connect that with the era of Hip-Hop we were talking about but the influences on Hip-Hop abound and can really come from anywhere I suppose… I remember watching Wildstyle for the first time (at the Orson Welles theater in Cambridge, Mass!) and wondering why Debbie Harry of Blondie was in the movie… I must have been like 12 at the time so I didnt understand the connection… I basically just made the mental note and kept it moving but later I came to understand that this was one of those cross-cultural moments where interracial cooperation and a class (and common-poiltical interests/orientation) connection if nothing else joined these two seemingly disparate genres of music… the dichotomy is really imposed later between what we used to ignorantly classify as rock being white music and rap being black music so much so that some of us were ashamed to admit we even liked rock music! It’s yet another moment where that cooperation it seems to me, could have been so empowering and impactful on the industry that it becomes one that has to be destroyed and these false classifications of music have to be imposed such that by the Run DMC and Aerosmith collaboration you think that this is actually something new! Thank you again for the context and the historical perspective.
I am so fortunate that I was coming of age when Hip Hop and Punk rock began and in my world they are forever intertwined. I have been saying for years that Public Enemy is truly a Punk band. This is a good post. I love Siouxsie and the Banshees too, my friend.
Mind-opening piece. Thank you.
I hate to start with corrections, but the Devo song is titled “Whip It”. “Let it Whip” was a Dazz Band song (a good song too). LA is 3000 miles from NYC, not 300.
I always thought of New Wave as Punk + Disco, with the punk snarl smoothed over and the 2/4 beat. Disco is funk smoothed over, and funk is the evolution of soul with rock, and rock was originally an eclectic mix of R&B, blues, country, and classical music and pop jazz.
I used to listen to KROQ a lot, and they would have call-in shows, and people would go off-topic and ask the DJs to play more rap. This happened all the time. Eventually, they started to answer the question or request honestly, and said that the advertising was segregated and management didn’t want KROQ to be classified an “urban” station because the ad revenues are lower.
There are a lot of other crossovers or collaborations. Kanye West sampled King Crimson’s “20th Century Schizoid Man”. Anthrax covered Bring the Noize with PE. And there’s also the fact that Alternative Tentacles published some early indie hip hop for Living Legends. I know you know a ton more about that that I do, so I’m noting it here so someone doesn’t respond to me to castigate me. (I used to listen to Davey D’s shows on KALX and KMEL.)
There was also crossover in the fans. There were some people who’d go to a metal or punk show wearing a hip hop artist t-shirt, or go to a hip hop or disco event with a metal or punk t-shirt. What they were doing was figuring out a way to find other fans who had eclectic “hard” tastes who’d be fun to hang with. You know the other people you’d find would probably also resist categories.
So, the crossover is big. It’s a big deal at the “tip of the iceberg” that Davey D is recalling in this history, but it’s also big across artists who didn’t get as popular, and it’s even bigger further down the iceberg, in the fan bases and in the communities.
“while their Lower Eastside white counterparts got into the British import punk and new wave.”
NO, Punk was a New York American based genre. It just so happened that Malcom McLaren took what he saw in NY and brought it to London. It was his razzle dazzle version that hit it big not the garage band anger that was showcased in NY in the mid 70’s.