In recent days Jay Electronica has come under fire from a number of women who were taken aback by some recent remarks and antics displayed at his shows. Apparently him and Nas have a bet about how many and what type of women like to be choked during sex. For jay it looks to be crass joking but for many women the jokes cut deep and they been going in on him.. Read one of the blogs and peep the video below..
-Davey D-
At a recent Hip Hop performance, Jay Electronica asked his audiences “Do women like to be choked during sex?” Apparently, he asks this question at every show, and is conducting an informal survey so that him, his DJ, and Nas, can decide a $20,000 bet on the issue on December 25th.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUSZmp0XkFQ&feature=player_embedded
Continue reading this commentary at the Crunk Feminis Collective
i was hoping to read your opinion on this, not just a reposting. i haven’t read any response from men on the Crunk Feminist blogger’s words. For the record, I think she got it very very right.
I hadn’t heard about it till I read the blog.. i had a good intv a couple of months ago w/ Jay where he seemed spot on when talking abt Erykah..but this is pretty juvenile and not sure what else I would add to it.. I posted this bc the sistas can speak for themselves and the best thing I can do is provide a wider platform..
Some people are too damn sensitive thays how people talk some girls do like to be choked personally I would win the bet anyway lol
And erykah badu was naked in her video she can artistically express herself but that also means people are going to talk
Thanks Dave for reposting this but I’d love to hear you thoughts on it too.
@George have been sexually assaulted, or spoken to survivors of sexual assault, domestic violence, rape? You should really think about your ideas of what is too sensitive. Does your mother, sister, wife/girlfriend, daughter like to be choked? Do they count as all women, or just the “some” you speak of? Is that a question you want to think about because Jay Electronica and Nas are talking about them too. Because “that’s how some people talk” doesn’t mean that it’s not degrading or offensive. We could say the same about the Tea Party, or the KKK, or Glenn Beck…oh, they just talk that way…
Goddezz.. I think I already stated my opinion I think its pretty juvenile..I can easily make the connection to the larger picture of domestic violence and all that… and I think I’ve spoken on that numerous times.. I don’t think jay or Nas are those type of cats.. i do feel that they along with far too many other men don’t see the problem in calling women bitches, having bets about sex and doing what I would consider juvenile things.. What I’m more concerned about is the legions of fans both men and women who not only don’t see anything wrong with the behavior, but egg it on..that says to me whats the next step..and who leads it?
Do sista start treating Jay with the same disdain that gays have done Buju Banton? Are we writing letters demanding apology or for radio to refrain from playing him.. Do we want other men to send a letter to Jay and Nas saying that’s not cool? I’m asking these questions because its not enough to ask for personal accountability but institutional and thus far I have not really seen that demand being made..and I think its one that women should make..and for us as men to support…
This is weak minded nonsense. I can’t believe this bullshit passes as “news”.
In this day & age of open source electronics,open source computer code, micro controllers and robotics you could not only choke them; but do so with the precision of a near death experience.
Nas and whats-his-name need to grow up and pool their resources and buy a jet engine.Then they could shackled harem participants to the turbine, gas it, and post that shit on youtube.
When the girl rolled up on the video saying, “It’s not funny!” Someone screams, “Shut up, bitch.”
All I can add to this conversation is that while being choked during consensual sex may undoubtably be a preference of some women, I have experienced far too many sisters that have been working through the trauma of being raped, molested, and otherwise sexually abused to be okay with brothers joking about and taking so lightly such topics. It has made me wonder more than once, what would the world be like if there weren’t any such acts of violence? How open, friendly and trusting would women be? How much easier and sweeter would it be to be the object of their affection? Jay being so callous, whether intentionally or not (and I do believe he’s probably a good dude), does nothing to heal the obvious wounds women carry, but only puts salt in them. We need healing, bro. Straight up.
i would love to see what would happen if a major woman musician got on stage and told folks she and some of her girlfriends had a bet: ALL MEN LIKE TO BE ANALLY PENETRATED. maybe some only liked it under certain conditions (maybe only in jail, or only from women, not from men, etc) but the girls were betting money on it – $20,000, because they just had it like that. And the men who said they didn’t like it were lying. and when a man protested, he was made fun of and shut down. and when a man wrote about his bad experiences being raped against his will, he was called a sissy and a punk.
And the men (some straight, some gay) who ACTUALLY liked it? because it felt good? forget about it, they’d NEVER be brave enough to say so.
men have to speak up about sexual pleasure and denounce sexual violence, for the culture to really change, and i don’t see men doing that often enough.
Look here’s the deal..the understanding and sensitivity to these sorts of trauma aren’t there for a variety of reasons.. 1-First many men themselves have been victims either in jail or at when they were little boys.. Many are struggling with their own sexuality.. How is this coped with ? Some joke, become ultra macho , show a callousness… Does this excuse Jay Electronica? No.. But its reality we should at least note..
2-The key word here is healing and the first step to this is to speak on it.. I belive thats happening with several of the blogs..Should more men speak on it? yes, I think part of that happening is by them seeing what was written in these blogs.. This is not just about jay Electronica being educated, but also the scores of men who read it.. Thats the crux of the problem..The crowd cheered along..
3-Sadly in 2012, jay is lightweight.. We still have cats talking about pimping, still have cats referenceing checking, smacking and actually hitting women in where they are cheered along, protected and held up.. Like I said before.. whats some of the next steps?
Are we asking folks to avoid playing jay? Are we putting a campaign out to demand an action? Do folks wnat a sit down with him? Is there a tweet campaign to bring public attention to this the way we brought attention to Jay checking Diddy?
Biologically sticking things up your ass is good to inhibit prostate cancer.When men do it they have some kind of unconventional orgasm where yucky fluid blast out their ass clearing the colon for good health. I read that on the internet.
Nas and Jay Electronica probably have prostates that are in good standing.
i totally agree – manhood is constructed in a way that leaves little room to be vulnerable, empathetic, human. both sides are being cheated. i made my analogy not to be provocative just for the sake of it, but to try to encourage that empathy. As someone who was a “Safe Sex Educator” at one point I know a lot of people get into these practices without understanding what “Safe, Sane and Consensual” is all about, and how playing with power dynamics can take you into some deep waters.
I don’t think Jay Electronica is a bad guy, he just put something out there and his listeners are responding. I am glad you pointed the article out -I think that’s being an ally to women, for sure – and I hope there;s a lot more dialogue around healing sexuality and ending sexual violence in our culture, because both men and women will be gretly empowered if we can sort this stuff out.
What i think is an appropriate step is an open letter to jay electronica.. acknowledging his talent and expressing disappointment in his actions..There should be a request for him to help create safe spaces at his concerts.. Have that signed by a number of women and men.. It should be a letter that allows him to save face, but at the same time clear and firm that such behavior is not cool.. I’m sure lots of people would sign on..
That’s a good idea. The woman who wrote the blog at Crunk Feminist (“crunktastic”) broke the issue down so well, in the original post and in the comments section, she would be aa great person to write that letter.
Many people commented that they have been hearing Jay Electronica talk about this bet for over a year, and were uncomfortable with it, but didn’t know anyone else felt the same way or didn’t feel like they could speak on it. I’m glad “crunktastic’ put it out there, you reposted and there is some dialogue about it.
With all do respect to women, I have to ask this question: can you call a rose by any other name?
I realize that there is alot of volience aimed towards women, however, that doesn’t mean that all women are saints. It is similar to a brotha or sista commiting a crime and then blaming the white man.
Some women like to be chocked and that is why the vote is taking place. The bet wouldn’t exist if there weren’t women who get that type of sexual satisfaction. There are bitches and hoes in this world.I know people in the entertainment industry. They have women who will pull their panties down just to be in their presence for 30 minutes.
We are defined by what we do. There are alot of good women, however, a woman doesn’t deserve respect just because she has a vagina. She deserves respect based on her behavior.
Everyday, good men are treating like garbage because they fall for this victim nonsense.
Disagree Loverboy all women deserve respect and maybe you with hold it when u get disrespected.. This aint a situation where folks need to jump through hoops to earn respect persay especially when they haven’t done wrong…
Because there is systemic violence agaisnt wom,en all over the world simply because they do have virginas and hence aren’t considered equal with men, then we should recognize that sort of oppression and counter.. ie there’s a woman in Iran who is getting stoned for some male defined transgression..
Lastly women objecting to Jay should not be something we object to..We all check ourselves in situations and then try to shyt on folks when we think we can get away with it.. ie. in the video we see Jay in what appears to be a mostly white crowd. Imagine if he got up and said.. ‘How many Jews got a trust fund?.. me and Nas got a bet that most jews got trust funds..
The fact is lots of Jews got trust funds and even if he was joking if he stepped out of pocket that way, there would be some who would shut his ass down the same way they did PE, Michael Jackson and other groups who said something that was deemed offensive.. .
My point being that his fans have a right to express disatisfaction.. and hopefully he responds and refrains ..or at least clarifies..
if not they should not purchase and support and if he feels real strong about his stance then he should continue and not expect the full windfall of potential support and earnings
Davey D says:
December 10, 2010 at 9:46 am
What i think is an appropriate step is an open letter to jay electronica.. acknowledging his talent and expressing disappointment in his actions..There should be a request for him to help create safe spaces at his concerts.. Have that signed by a number of women and men.. It should be a letter that allows him to save face, but at the same time clear and firm that such behavior is not cool.. I’m sure lots of people would sign on..
======
Davey.
Thank you for offering this, as I have been thinking about it.
Really? I am thinking, and thinking.
I am interested in doing this. I wrote about Jay Elec and Choking earlier this week.
Link here. “Thinking About Jay Electronica and Choking Women During Sex.” http://bit.ly/hFuBFR
However his response to being held accountable for this on Twitter was so full of anger and a lack of contrition…honestly..It’s hard to extend an olive branch.
Especially after extending a VERY public olive branch to Ta-Nehisi Coates last month re his unwillingness to look at (read a book about) how the Black Feminist Movement shaped The Civil Rights and Black Power movements.
Link here. “For Colored Bloggers Who Consider Sexism and Racism.” http://bit.ly/ciMg5U
Still thinking.
Thank you for saying this.
~Renina
The original blog did call for Jay and Nas to consider giving the bet money to a charitable organization focused on women and sexual violence. The CFC and other allies also attempted to engage him on twitter and he has steadfastly ignored us. Perhaps an open letter would work. I’ll broach it with the other CFs and see how they would like to proceed. Thanks for bringing visibility to the issue, Davey D. It is much appreciated.
Lol…that Jewish statement was funny and most people in the industry know better than to make negative comments about jews because that is suicide.
I think u misunderstood my comment about respect. Every human desrves respect because they exist. Howvever, behavior begets treameant and/or definition daveyd.
I may have respect for them as a person, but I don’t respect their ways. So if I call a woman hoe or a bitch its only me describing their behavior, but its not me disrepecting women in general.
You’re right, as black people we have to be careful with the images that we throw out in the mass media.
How come no one talks about the things that women do to men?
Loverboy, the problem with the Jewish statement is not simply that it would be professional suicide but also that it is racist and in poor taste, because it stereotypes all Jewish people based upon the practices on some Jewish people.
This need to defend referring to women as bitches and hoes sounds like if a white person called some black people the n-word and then defended it by saying, “I don’t call all Black people the n-word–just Black people who act that way.” We would be outraged. That reasoning would be problematic, but the logic would be exactly the same as yours. And then it would be similar, if when called on their b.s. the white person responded, “how come no one talks about Black racism towards white people?”
The white person would be misguided because even if you think there are black racists (which I don’t), the few of them don’t have nearly the level of power white people have nor the history of racist subjugation.
When a man refuses to have a conversation about the systematic oppression of women, that is a man, who like the white misguided racist, has not dealt with his male privilege.
And in answer to your question, mainstream Hip Hop is a straight woman-bashing contest where almost all rappers talk about women as golddiggers, tramps, hoes, bitches, untrusthworthy, money-hungry, cheaters, etc. So it seems that Black men are talking quite a bit about what we supposedly “do to men.”
crunk
Yes, making a negative comment about any race would be in poor taste.
I am not defending the defamation of women.
Have you ever had someone cut you off while driving or have you had a bad experience in the grocery store with a disgruntle employee. Did you say something positive about them?
If I call Sarah Palin a dumb bitch does that mean that I’m calling all women dumb bitches?
“I don’t call all Black people the n-word–just Black people who act that way”….Are you giving the word bitch the same weight as the words nigger, faggot or spick.
The conversation is not about the mis-treatment of women worldwide. I’m all for the rights of women.
I don’t listen to hip-hop for that reason.
Do you like every man? Have you ever said anything negative about men? Do you get made a women like Nikki minaj,lil kim and fox brown?
Nobody in this world should be respected. The whole concept of respect is a myth. You either like being around somebody or you don’t. You either want to pick on people or you don’t.
There is a reason that street gangs, police and the military – the groups the quickest to promote concept of “respect” – are also the quickest to fucking kill you and be disrespectful hypocrites.
Because these people are really just overcompensating for being contradictory mentally retarded fairies.
“Respect” is for mentally retarded people that don’t understand civility.
Loveryboy,
My final thoughts: all men, especially Black men, need to deal with the concept of male privilege, because this ultimately an argument about the operations of the larger systems of male privilege and sexism, rather than an argument about anyone’s right to refer to women as bitches and hoes. Do I think that bitch bespeaks the same level of injury as “nigger”? Well, as a Black woman, who has been referred to derogatorily as both things, I say no. But just as I’ve had white folks call me the n-word on more than one occasion, I’ve had brothers call me out my name, both ones I know and ones I don’t. Therefore, I’m unwilling to make my womanhood subordinate to my race because both sexism and racism impact my life. If Black men want Black women to continue to stand in solidarity with them on racial issues, then they need to begin to understand that sexism, which affects one half the Black population, is a racial issue. Period.
The best way to dead this is 1-to start creating spaces where certain types of behavior and standards are encouraged and negative ones not tolerated.. I’m not sure if the fight around Jay electronica is the end all be all.. His crassness can be a teachable moment for others to get.. OLn the real though there needs to be a sista who is nice on the mic who jacks a hot beat and verbally beats his ass that ends the madness as far as he’s concerned..
In short women have to always deal from a position of strength..and strength can be defined on various levels..mental, physical, economic etc.. I think sistas should out think jay.. and bust his chops in ways that shut this conversation down or brings attention and awareness to the issue of male priveledge and oppression..
I think the crunk article was great step.. it raised awreness, but its not the currency for the mases who need to be reached.. Get yourself a video cam.. some talented people and post up a youtube response to him and any other male who wants to step foul.. and I mean this with the utmost respect and in no way want to trivilaize the seriousness of the issue at hand.. But bottomline .. this is Hip Hop and sometimes fools need to be shut down
A few years ago there was a group called the Bloodhound posse and they said some crazy shyt about asian women.. These two emcees out of chicago from a group called I was Born with Two Tongues did a song that tore Bloodhound to shreds.. too bad Youtube wasn’t around.. bc they ripped those cats something fierce..Anida and Margo were the names of the two women who got busy..
Ladies and gentlemen, Jay Electronica’s question isn’t an isssue of sexism and male domination… It’s an issue on sexuality and preferred sexual practice…
Some people like erotic asphyxiation during sexual intercourse (men AND women), despite the fact that it’s a dangerous practice. It’s a pretty common (but risky) practice in the BDSM culture. Everybody here is trying to make this into an issue on sexism; but in all due reality, it’s (really) an issue of sexuality. If a woman (or man) likes to be choked during sexual intercourse, you would get a response from that person that would suggest that it should be continued. If the practice is going too far, then they’re usually codewords for the other party to stop the practice (as practiced within the BDSM culture). If you want to take the “sexism” angle on this issue, if a man was practicing non-consensual erotic asphyxation on a woman, then it’s become an issue of RAPE. With cases like rape, (in the American justice system) men usually don’t have much to stand on versus the word of a woman… Plus, what do you take on the positive response from some women that responded to Jay’s question (meaning that they LIKE to be choked during sex)? Are these women somehow reinforcing female submissiveness and violence during sex? ABSOLUTELY NOT, BECAUSE, ITS A SEXUAL PRACTIVE THEY CHOOSE TO ENJOY. What’s done behind the bedroom door between two human beings is no business of ours, nor should we even make it one.
<>
Sadly Jay took this behind closed door practice and made it public without context and familiarity which made it an issue.. By doing so.. it becomes a thing where some folks know exactly what he’s talking about while others know or are reminded of what took place when they got choked by someone they know (most rapes occur w/ someone they know) who felt that some ‘Bitch’ needed to be choked and she’d like it..I think most went to see Jay kick some nice rhymes..instead they got treated to him exposing a bet about bedroom closed door behavior.. and it caused a reaction with a number of his fans.. Enough that it cant be easily dismissed..take a look at some of the responses to this and u can easily see why some women would get upset..
Whats the mature thing to do? acknowledge that what he did was upsetting to some.. and fall back.. Does it mean he has to be censored? No it means that taken out of context and at a time when rape and sexual assault are all too commonplace..
Personally I thought it was crass and juvenile.. I’m from the school of sexual activities are private…. But since this came out I run into far too many women who found this bothersome..
There are so many different issues going on here. First, I found Jay’s comments offensive. Whether or not they are “sexist” depends on your definition. I think some people believe terms like “lustful”, “sexist”, “misogynistic” and “sexual objectification” are interchangeable. That’s a problem. Making sexually explicit (and inappropriate) comments doesn’t automatically make you “sexist” or “misogynistic”. I do think we need to be careful about the labels we use.
Second, “crunktastic” does bring up the point that the bet negates any notion of a sex positive discussion. I’m not sure what that has to do with the author’s issue(s) with Jay’s comments. If he didn’t bring up the bet, would the author have had no problem with the comments? Who really believes that? The financial aspect seems ancillary in this case, used to support a very thin argument in which it’s hard to convict him based solely on his words. Remember, he phrased it as a choice, not an assertion. You may infer that his position originated in some place “sexist,” but you can’t say with absolute certainty that this was the case. Consequently, this is about his words, but it’s also about crunktastic’s particular sensitivities and baggage as well.
I like the idea of sending him an open letter. Give him an opportunity to address those issues in a way that does allow him to “save face”. If we can’t do that, then are we really interested in seeing him become a better person? And if were not interested in that, then what are we interested in??? If he refuses to answer, or does not answer in a way that is satisfying to us as consumers, then we (myself included) should no longer support him. Let me be absolutely clear about that: I’ve never supported him to begin with, but if I found that he was a raging sexist and unwilling to grow and evolve as a human being, then he would never have my support.
Thirdly, after going to the link and reading some of the blogs and witnessing the subsequent conversations, I can’t get down with their collective either. The problem I have with their particular brand of feminism is there’s nothing progressive about it. I saw no interest in actually helping him to see where he’s wrong, or even giving him an opportunity to better himself. It’s just a place to vent and a tar and feathering operation insofar as black men are concerned. I can get the cold should from anywhere. I can go to any mainstream media outlet and be grouped with mainstream rappers or ballplayers since what those several hundred people do and say speaks for all of us, right? Why would I actively seek out those who subscribe to that belief? What do you do when you find both the comments and reactions to those comments distasteful (although not necessarily to the same degree)? Well, you respond in the same way I would recommend to them in this case: reject what’s being said, respectfully ask them to address your concerns (as I saw some commenters do) and, if they can’t do that, refuse to support them.
Finally, I have a general comment about Crunktastic’s site and other sites in the same vein. I think those who practice this particular brand of feminism stay at the margins because they don’t really know how to build partnerships. For example, I already know the response I would get from my above comments. I would get sentences talking about male privilege and how I’m not holding Jay and, by extension, black men accountable for their actions. I would be told how telling it is that I haven’t denounced his comments despite the fact that I said I find his comments offensive, I would like to see an open letter sent to him and, if he doesn’t answer to the satisfaction of his listeners, then we (myself included) shouldn’t support him. Instead of building on the things we agree on to get some sort of results, I see too many in the so-called “black feminist blogosphere” who would rather attack people like me because I don’t agree on every aspect of their philosophy or the tactics they use to apply it. They would take my unwillingness to agree on everything they say as proof of my unabashed sexism. It’s a shame because I thought the goal was to actually see some progress on these issues, not simply jump on one relatively unknown black celebrity to the next. I think they end up missing the forest for the trees. Worse yet, I think some of them miss the trees for a twig on a branch. It’s a sad state of affairs. We have a president who compromises on everything when he shouldn’t and seemingly intelligent people who won’t compromise on anything when they should. Oh well, on to the next unknown rapper. Maybe Cunninlynguists will say something next week to set the black blogosphere on fire. Actually, the name of the group could be an issue. Why am I giving them ammunition? :o)
Still Black,
The argument was real simple. Erotic asphyxiation isn’t sexist or inherently problematic unless it is practiced against someone’s will. While Jay did not explicitly advocate for such, he laughed at the assertion that lots of women “are being choked against their will” as even his informal poll of the audience seemed to suggest. Furthermore, his actions became sexist at the point that he silenced a sister who found his comments offensive and chose to voice them. She came to the concert to support him as an artist, presumably, and she shouldn’t have had to be subjected to that brand of sexism. It’s never right, but the girl didn’t show up at a Wayne concert asking for conscious rap.
Finally, the bet is problematic because it tethers female sexual pleasure to the exchange of money between men. This is a classic form of the operation of patriarchy, and it should be called out even at the micro-level. No, I would not have been as apt to call Jay out if there hadn’t been a bet and the visible active silencing of a female dissenter at his concert. Like I said, I’m not hating on folks who like choking, although I do think that practices in the realm of BDSM demand lots of responsibility, so that no one gets killed. This piece has been reposted in a number of venues and several sisters have indicated that they have experienced being choked against their will. If Jay is gonna talk about ish like that, he needs to do it responsibly period. If not, women get hurt and that’s a feminist issue. Period.
So this is the reason that I would have a problem with your argument. Not because you disagree, but rather because your disagreement is predicated on a wholesale mischaracterization of my argument, not to mention that you traffic in subtle uses of ad hominem to suggest that this is about, my personal “baggage” as you say. Clearly these are the conclusions of a psychological dilettante.
I critiqued only 3 Black men, and only for a very specific practice that there is actual evidence of, but you equate this to a wholesale “tar and feathering” of all brothers. That’s totally disingenuous, because it means that you can dismiss every critique of a Black man, by simply equating it to Black male-bashing. And again, it is for this reason that feminists would accuse you of misusing male privilege, not because we lack the desire to build with you. It seems you lack the desire to build with us, unless we make our critiques of sexism more palatable. And we are just as unwilling to do that as are we are unwilling to make our critiques of racism more palatable for white folks.
I have dealt with you at the level of the logic of your arguments; I have not personally attacked you or assumed things about who you are or your motives. I challenge you to do the same.
“So it seems that Black men are talking quite a bit about what we supposedly “do to men.”
I haven’t mischaracterized your arguments at all. I’ve read them all very closely. You’re only critiquing three black men in that blog, but then you make this kind of statement here based on what “almost all mainstream rappers” talk about. You’re not very good at hiding your bias (and that’s not necessarily a bad thing). Since when do rappers speak for black men? They speak for themselves.
Secondly, I couldn’t hear Jay laugh although it looks like he did when leaning forward (the camera man seems to be laughing too). I also heard him say very clearly after the “laugh” that “We don’t choke women…only if they ask us, then we make them sign a nondisclosure agreement.” I don’t pretend to find any of his comments funny or appropriate, but make a judgment based on what was said, not on how you think he felt or what his “actions” may have implied.
Thirdly, we really need to have a definition of sexism because I don’t think most people have any idea what it really means anymore. He didn’t discriminate against anyone. Let’s remember what his role is on stage: to speak. He’s sexist because he silenced someone? He actually acknowledged what the person said. He responded, “It’s not funny.” He also tried to defuse a situation to the best of his ability–inadequately, I think–and keep it moving. If he had allowed her to come up to mic and express her feelings and then allowed someone else to come up and talk about how much she loves being choked during sexual intercourse, would that have made things better in your eyes? Would that have made his comments less sexist in your eyes? If this were a community forum and everyone had an opportunity to speak, and she was cut off for trying to voice her opinion, then you could make a reasonable case for discrimination. But this was not that kind of venue. It’s akin to a comedian making a comment and someone reacting badly to it. Should the comedian hand the mic over to offended person so they can air their grievances? When have you ever seen that in your life? You may be right about how you feel about him, but you can’t really support it with direct quotes. This is why I said your comments are really as much about your own sensitivities and baggage as it is about what he said because most of what he ACTUALLY said is in direct contrast to the claims you’re making against him. I’m talking about what he actually said, not what his motives may be or the spirit in which he made those comments. You have to infer most of your opinion on the matter. This is what makes your argument a weak one.
I do think Jay deserves the opportunity to elaborate on his comments. I also think it’s going to be less likely for that to happen if he thinks it’s just a trap or a no-win situation for him. It’s a shame because I think it could have actually resulted in a small positive gain for all interested parties if handled correctly. In any case, there are much larger fish to fry and much easier cases to prosecute if you’re so inclined. You’re really fishing for minnows right now. That’s fine if that’s what you want to do. I’m just not sure how this makes any sense for anyone who’s actually interested in trying to empower women and eliminate sexism. But hey, knock yourself out. I think Little Brother made some troubling comments on another blog I came across a couple of weeks ago. :o)
Brother, just because you read my arguments doesn’t mean that you have now characterized them properly. You want to engage feminism only to the extent that it doesn’t offend or doesn’t become too “rowdy or uppity.” In other words, perhaps we would have been more productive if we simply would have been nicer.
So I’ll say two things: First, Black feminism does not consider Black men the enemy. I wasn’t taught it that way and I don’t subscribe to it in that manner. However, your ability to dismiss the legitimacy of my claims only works if I’m an angry Black man-hating feminist. That, however, is most certainly not what I’m on. By contrast, my argument against Jay Electronica still holds true without bashing Black men, which I did not do. Btw, pointing out the misogyny in the Black male dominated space of Hip Hop certainly does not mean I think all Black men are a problem. Jay’s comments and his response to his audience member were both problematic. These comments participate in rape culture in ways detrimental to all women, especially Black women. Period. The end.
Second, another commenter on my page helped me to understand that what you have engaged in is the equivalent of a tone argument. So I’m simply going to repost the two short links that she listed on our page here. Hopefully they are useful to you.
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument
http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/02/12/the-privilege-of-politeness/
Thanks for the dialogue. I am officially, however, done.
Still Black:
Your condescending, know-it-all tone is perfectly suited to your style of argument – setting up preposterous scenarios and asking other people to engage in your fantastic mis-readings of the situation at hand. It’s tiring, to see you miss the point over and over on the one hand, and then attempt to belittle the woman you are arguing with on the other. You are boxing a shadow. Start again.
Regarding Jay Electronica; he doesn’t seem to be interested in addressing this issue – has he responded? I read a reference to him posting on Twitter somewhere about his choking comments – if someone could post that I’d like to know what he said. Is he still putting this “bet” out there on stage?
I like the way crunktastic organizes her words….man that’s sexy(no sexism intended).
I look forward to checking out future articles.
@Allison… You can call me whatever you’d like. It’s irrelevant to the issue at hand. Why not try addressing that or me…with some direct quotes? Maybe you should start again. I also said that it’s less likely you’ll hear him respond. Why would he if this is the level of discourse he can expect? What, exactly, is the upside for him to entertain this debate in a public forum? I like DaveyD’s suggestion of writing an open letter and allowing him to make a better decision while also saving face. To me, that’s much better than beating him over the head and trying to get him to surrender as an irredeemable sexist.
A link to an open letter that I support:
http://karliehustle.tumblr.com/post/2169311161/an-open-letter-please-re-blog
I was quite excited upon hearing about JE’s signing with JZ (I am no fan of JZ’s music but when he speaks I do enjoy to hear him and knows he exhibits signs of simple brilliance…the dichotomy…hmmm). I thought the signing could be a push for more intelligible music, and interplanetary audible lyrics and images being heard in mainstream airwaves. I was born and grew up alongside hip hop and now that I am an adult I am looking back at not only my development through the years but hip hop’s as well… I am curious…
I have just recently (yesterday) come upon Jay’s comment and have gone through a myriad of emotions and at the very root of it I am confused and concerned at the state of the world especially as it relates to women. My husband and I have been avid appreciators of J.E. and his music, lyrics and overall character (from what we of course are privy to). I too understand we are all human…however, I do find this situation very baffling on many levels but mostly unsettling metaphysically, karmicly (not sure if it’s a word but I hope my gist is gotten;)) spiritually and even generationaly…I digress
My husband and I went to a Mos Def concert in ATL and JE opened for him, we were just as excited to see him perform…his energy was off the charts his flow was fluid and his charisma was aces. After his set he did something very different he led the whole audience in a non religious, universal yet sincere and divine word of non specific prayer. I thought the words he chose were poignant but the whole act quite different we both felt (after discussing on the way home that evening) that that prayer really set another tone for that evening and the crowd seemed more united (maybe it was just us). No one heckled him, told him to shut up…I fact many of us united hands, hearts and spirits. And I am unsure of whether he did it at each and every concert but that is a thought worth pondering. BTW both Mighty mos and JE ROCKED IT that night!!
I feel that had I gone to his concert in Seattle and he began or ended his set with the question he is NOW posing to audiences worldwide, I would have felt entirely different, not to mention the energy of the crowd. I know I would have left the building until Mos came on and then maybe would haven’t even stayed for his concert only feeling he could be “guilty by association” especially if it was polled at every concert…again I digress a bit…
After the concert, a friend of our was good friends with Mos and wanted to introduce us which was an added bonus of the evening so we waited outside and while we were waiting we were graced by JE…he wasn’t talking to everyone either, but he came and spoke to us (a group of sisters and my husband) and we inquired about his daughter and her well-being and he beamed a ray of light and broke out his cell phone and shared pictures and a brief story about Mars. Being a mother of two, a wife, daughter and aunt I felt his joy radiate and was touched to be a part of that moment with him…So fast forward to the present when I heard, read and meditated on the poll/bet he is posing I found my disturbance in these points here…
(Like you I know that consenting adults do what they like when they like and that’s one thing so rough sex, violent sex to each their own) BUT when attending a concert and having the person I am coming to see pose a question of this nature: 1.knowing there are minors present (he make his disclaimer in the video of him in Seattle) 2.knowing women are present and I am assuming this next point (based on the words he prayed at his previous concert) but 3.knowing the seed you are planting by stating a question of this nature in the minds of the public, the universe over and over again really upset me, saddened me and also alarmed me, at the lack of respect and consideration for the women from whence he came from and fathered. It alarmed me also because I had just seen a clip of Kanye’s new video Monster and there are many images just in the 40 second preview of women (mannequins) hanging from ceiling and Kanye kissing dead looking women, while fondling their genitalia, and knowing the connection between KW, JZ and now JE and praying that this is not the next level of abuse on women. I really am not against nor in support of the conspiracy theories but I am aware of my ancestors and spiritual guides and the knowledge of the power of words and ritual and I do stand firm in stating that this is a dangerous thread to “gamble” with…I know for a fact if his under aged daughter went to a concert and this was a topic of discussion AND GODDESS forbid a choking/sex incident like this occurred to his under aged daughter IT WOULD BE NO LAUGHING MATTER.
I am aware as adults we are all given choices and it is up to us as individuals to make our choices (right or wrong) and deal with the outcomes (positive or negative). The reasons as to the “whys” of this question are mute to me…was it a pub stunt, is it an initiation, was it “male” humor, is it really just a bet, is it linked to a song or was it simply a joke. However, the repercussions are what concern me.
I know we all make thoughtless mistakes and because I know of second chances I am prayerful that JE will step up and admit to his irresponsibility of this poll and right the wrongs that he has set into motion…and if he doesn’t I can no longer support this brother based of the fact that I am a woman, daughter, sister, wife, and come from a divine line of women.
Peace, love and positive motion with the ocean by the light of the moon goddess…
a daughter of Yemonya
there are lots of practices that some women like, some women like pissing on men’s faces. yet, jay e is not standing there are discussing his bet on how many women in the audience would enjoy pissing on his face. there is pretty much zero chance that jay e will ask his audience about women who enjoy pissing on men, sodomizing them, kicking them in the balls while wearing high heels or any number of other practices that grownups engage in.
the reason he mentioned choking of women is to eroticize women’s pain. the reason he mentioned that some women like it, is to eroticize women’s submission. that’s it.
so, what’s the diff between jay electronica and dr. kinsey?
much of the alleged sexism seems to be in the interpretation. but it’s all relative. ask yourself: who is jay more likely to interact with: groupies or women with phD.’s?
now, there may be some phD.’s who like to be choked in their own private, personal lives…so, does that make them any less academically qualified?
davey you are fanning some flames here.
boycott Jay Electronica? what about Jimmy Iovine?
fyi, jay did this same routine at his show at oakland paramount where erkkah was headlining. she ain’t say nuffin.
i think what is problematic here for some of the more irate commenters is the fact that there is an alleged bet involved. that’s what changes the topic, i think, from one of boudoir preferences to one of misogyny.
Maybe Jay did cross the line, but the Buju reference is problematic because in that case, we actually saw an artist essentially being persecuted in effigy over a two-decade period, miscontextualized, etc., with no real attempt at reconciling opposing viewpoints, effective dialogue, or anything but advancing a political and economic agenda.
not saying that’s happening here but i think any response should be carefully considered, and not written out of anger, but wisdom.
Eric I’m not fanning anything..I simply reposted part of a blog and these folks have a right to their feelings.. which is Jay crossed the line.. me personally I thought it was crass and yes, any one offended by any artist should excercise their economic perogative.. thats not fanning any flames.. now if they wanna take it to Jimmy Iovine and whoever, I’m all for it, but what’s at hand is that he’s talking about a BET to concert goers..I don’t think Iovine said do this.. one of the sisters explained what is problematic with a bet..
As far as Buju is concerned.. I think the larger point was at the end of the day people need to stay on the case.. Yes Buju was taken out of conext and mine and your opinion.. But at the end of the day members of the gay community were relentless about shutting him down as they did Cypress Hill, def Jeff and Turbo B.. I only wish we’d could do the same and for arguably more worthwhile causes.
Granted, I haven’t read the majority of the comments and arguments listed above (they’re just too many and too long), I must say that I wasn’t too upset or offended by Jay’s comments. I even laughed at the “a lot of women getting choked against their will” comment; I took that as him adding some commentary on the miscommunication between men and women but I didn’t take it as him advocating undesired violent acts on women. I even think that there are more women who do like getting choked than that admitted it out there. I would not be out there screaming and yelling “heyyyy!” even though I am the furthest thing from adverse to it; it’s just some things you don’t go around shouting.
Yet, the world that we live in today promotes “pushing it to the limit” and nothing, especially sexual, is private. And this is not just a man thing or a rap thing; it’s a huge societal issue. Women, men, Black folk and white folk, rich, poor, celebrities, regular average Joes, everybody is putting their private (sexual) business out on front street for a multitude of reasons. And the fact that we think it’s ok (and not even simply ok, but profitable) is an issue that we need to be discussing.
V
dave, even equating jay electronica to buju is fanning flames. i do agree, however, with some of your other, more salient comments on the topic of misogyny in general.
asking jay to create a “safe space” at his shows implies his shows are unsafe, which i dont think has been the case.
also, and feminists won’t like this, but we don’t seem to be talking about choking w/out consent.
i remember last year a similar issue came up around common, kanye and kid cudi’s remix of poker face, whose lyrics some women found inappropriate. but instead of creating a real space for dialogue, and looking at the issue honestly without applying a double standard, the self-described radical black feminist party line remained stuck on diatribes, some of which seemed more grounded in rhetorical anger than pragmatic realism and advancement of the topic.
so i would caution against that in this case.
First Eric there’s no comparison.. between Buju and Jay.. There is a comparison to how activist apply pressure.. Gay community vs women.. I say and stand stead fastly buy it.. take a page from those activist apply economic and political pressure.. Thats a bottom line statement.
Now I think the sistas who wrote the piece and found this offensive are smart enough to know what’s what.. they don’t need me or you to tell them there’s a difference between Jay and Buju..they can decide for themselves..
As for the pokerface scenario.. that was a few people led by a woman who could write and she had a right to her opinion..was she angry? Yes.. is she the same as the sistas who wrote their article? We can ask them..
k says:
December 12, 2010 at 9:45 pm
“…. kicking them in the balls while wearing high heels or any number of other practices that grownups engage in. ”
LOL
“First Eric there’s no comparison.. between Buju and Jay.. There is a comparison to how activist apply pressure.. Gay community vs women.. I say and stand stead fastly buy it.. take a page from those activist apply economic and political pressure.. Thats a bottom line statement.”
Dave, you made the analogy, now you say there’s no comparison–which i already said–???
Okayyyyyy….LOL
Just looking at the Buju thing for a moment, not only are there women of color in the gay community–some of whom came out in favor of not boycotting Banton last year–but the entire scenario is different. The tactics employed by LGBT activists incurred a warning from the Florida ACLU for violating First Amendment principles, which also guarantee gays and lesbians freedom of expression, or the right to protest in the first place. Plus there is a huge difference between campaigning over a song and campaigning over stage patter.
It sure seemed like you were egging on folks to take another step…e.g. “this is Hip Hop and sometimes fools need to be shut down.”
IMO that’s an overreach, since sexist comments didn’t start and wont end with Jay Electronica. Put it this way: he wouldn’t be the first place i would target if i was looking to do something about this issue which resulted in actual change.
OTOH, i can see why some people might be annoyed, irritated or upset with Jay, and once an issue is raised, valid or not, the artist’s response is critical and in this case, his response seems underwhelming.
If your “bottom line statement” is that economic and political pressure must be applied in every single case of misogyny/racism/homophobia/sexism/injustice, i say good luck there, buddy.
Personally, i’d like to see more attempts at backroom diplomacy and an honest commitment to a constructive dialogue between feminist sistas and male hip-hop artists, to be honest.
A rhyme battle would certainly suffice–Jay vs. Jean Grae? Jay vs. Medusa?–but the tactics of the activists also have to be looked at. If putting Jay on blast publicly results in him backing into a corner, that’s not as desirable an outcome as sitting down and talking with Jay off the record, and getting him to come out publicly against sexually-demeaning comments, or comments which could be interpreted as such.
We all know that sexism is a problem, but what’s the solution? Economic pressure against an industry mogul like Jimmy Iovine–who’s responsible for more misogyny than any rapper– would mean a lot more than economic pressure against an artist who was very little-known until two years ago, doesn’t own a record label, and doesn’t have clout at radio and video outlets on that level.
just saying…
Eric.. your taking a conversation out of context..the context is many women found Jay’s remarks upsetting, several articles were written and folks did reach out to jay and ignored them.. I offered up a number of suggestions ranging from reaching out to him, Erykah, battling him or economically punishing him.. The same way the gay community punisihed “def Jeff, Cypress Hill, Turbo B and Buju banton among others.. I mentioned several in my overall remarks..
I also said I thought his remarks were juvenile.. but I’m not a woman who was offended so I don’t wanna minimize the hurt, anger or concern expressed by those who brought this topic up.. thats not fanning flames.. that’s laying out options to intelligent folks.. and I think its not either or.. when going after artists and industry mogul.. u do both..if u see it as fit.. But Jimmy wasn’t on stage announcing a bet.. But we do know if Jay made some jokes dissing Mr Iovines community.. his shut down would be quick and economic in nature..
Peace to all, based upon the discussions and energy here with this topic (along with other situations of varying degrees) I am putting out a call to all women of all backgrounds, ages etc to join myself and several other women across the world in a very special healing full moon ceremony.
The full Moon is a time when women would come together to celebrate themselves and the Spirit of Great Mother Moon. It is a time to give thanks for lessons and blessings since the last full moon. In this case this being the last moon of this cycle, it is time to reflect and give thanks for things received throughout the year and also to put prayers into the Universe for the upcoming year. Our ancestors new and worked with collective energy doing rituals and prayer circles together to add ashe, Spiritual power to the energy. We have the power to use that same energy to bring balance and harmony to our lives right now.
INVITE YOUR MOTHERS, GRANDMOTHERS, SISTERS, AUNTS, SISTER FRIENDS AND ALL WOMEN TO COME AND JOIN US
At 11:15 pm EST on December 21, 2010, we would like every woman to go outside, read aloud the group affirmation of unity, wealth, success and prosperity. While facing the moon lift your largest purse up towards the heavens and open it up asking the Moon to please fill up our bags with unity, wealth, success, prosperity and all good things for our collective upliftment While your purses are held high say fill them up 3 times.
Affirmation:
We come to you humble this evening and in prayer for the upliftment of our communities and for our families, children and for our own spiritual preservation. We ask for guidance to help direct our minds, and spirit in reconnecting with our truest selves, to know and to believe that our bodies are sacred vessels, that our wombs are the homes of the souls returning ,that we are not without fault but we must begin to forgive ourselves and others for any transgressions known and unknown. We pray for healing of our bodies, our spirits, and our minds. We pray for the upliftment of the children, that they will be protected, nurtured and loved.
Please fill us up with joy, good health, hope, happiness, peace of mind, good character, gentle character, self love, self determination, moral courage, self-worth,& unity please fill up ours purses with prosperity, wealth, and abundance. Then say: (fill them up, fill them up, fill them up) (your confirmation statement)
LET US UNITE, HEAL AND BRING BALANCE TO SITUATIONS SUCH AS THESE AND MANY MORE USING OUR FEMININE ENERGY, POWER AND CONNECTION TO MOTHER EARTH
peace love and positive motion of the ocean by the light of the moon goddess
I’m curious to find out what blog platform you have been utilizing? I’m experiencing some small security issues with my latest website and I would like to find something more safe. Do you have any suggestions?