Can We Trust SFPD on the Shooting of 19 year old Kenneth Harding?

Here’s a few stories and updates on the recent tragic shooting of 19 year old Kenneth Harding this past Saturday in the SF Bayview district… First we have our Hard Knock Radio coverage where we spoke to several witnesses to the shooting along with community activists. Folks we talk to in the Bayview vehemently refute the accounts given by the police who claim Harding shot at them. Witnesses we spoke to in the Bayview say that’s not true.

Others also want to know why we have not seen the multiple witnesses the police have laid claim to.. Why have they not step forth to speak? Why haven’t other news agencies discovered these witnesses and brought them forth for us to hear and see?

SFPD also claims to have found gun residue on the hands of Kenneth Harding. My question is what news outlets have independently verified this?

SFPD has recently been rocked by one of the largest scandals in its history

Some may ask why be so distrustful of SF Finest? Well as SF Film maker and Bayview resident Kevin Epps pointed out SFPD has already lost credibility with the public. Many have forgotten it was just 3 months ago SFPD was rocked with a scandal that involved dozens of felony cases being dropped because cops were shown on video behaving in unethical manners ranging from falsifying reports, illegally searching suspects, stealing from victims etc. What was shown was believed to be the tip of the iceberg and as results a federal investigation was launched.

If that wasn’t enough the scandal which was the largest in recent history of SFPD wasn’t discovered and ‘policed’ by the department itself. It was Jeff Adachi, the city’s public defender, and private defense lawyers who did the heavy lifting. Much of the scandal took place during the tenure of former police chief George Gascon who now serves as district attorney-Talk about conflict of interest. At last count a whooping 57 felony cases were dropped.

With all that in mind, there’s no way the citizens of SF, especially those in the Bayview can confidently trust the police are gonna be forthright in their findings especially if something egregious took place.

19 year old Kenneth Harding shot

It’s interesting to note that many who staunchly support the police while overlooking these recent scandals are hell bent on suggesting that because Harding had a criminal past he deserved to be shot. That’s wrong on all angles. As community advocate and SF City Commissioner La Mesha Irizarry pointed out, it doesn’t matter if Harding was the poster child for a chain saw massacre, he gets to have his day in court like anyone else. Police are not judge , jury and executioner no matter what. Even if he shot at them as alleged by the police, once he was taken down, medical aid was to be immediately administered. Police are trained to be first responders.. The graphic video along with witness statements shows the police didn’t aid Harding, they let him die.

Anyway you can peep the coverage we did the other day in the Bayview by accessing the following links

http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/71633

The archive will be available up till August 1 2011..

You can also peep the archive on Swift FM

http://swift.fm/mrdaveyd/swift/129819/

Below are a couple of stories we encourage folks to peep including this one from Tiny Gray-Garcia of POOR Magazine titled
Killed for riding while Poor

We sat together: elders, youth, workers, students, and folks. We were on our way to a low-paid job, an overpriced university, a pre-gentrified home and a public school. There was laughter and shouts, murmurs and silence. Then suddenly, there were nine heavily armed police officers and fare inspectors walking through the crowded 14 Mission Muni line. One stopped in front of me and my son.

“I don’t have a transfer, I lost it,” I tentatively answered a cop who asked to see my paperwork as I clutched my son’s stroller and tried to see how close I was to the back door of the bus.

“We will have to write you a citation and you will have to step off the bus — now.” He was yelling at me and was flanked by another officer. I knew I couldn’t make a run for it, but I almost tried.

I thought of this moment when I heard about the 19-year-old man shot by the SFPD while running away from a Muni bus because he didn’t have a transfer in the Bayview July 16.

Shot and killed for not having $2 bus fare.

At a press conference held July 18 at the scene of the shooting, Joanne Abernathy from People Organized to Win Employment Rights made the point: “No one should be shot for not having enough money to ride the bus.”

You can continue reading the article at SF Bay Guardian.

You can also check out footage of the protest in SF tonite where 35 were arrested

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2011/07/19/18685332.php

Over 35 people were arrested for protesting the shooting of 19 year old Kenneth Harding

Comments

  1. Can we trust Black folks in the Bay Area?

    (Something I posted before but I think bears repeating)

    Something I noticed about Black folks in the Bay Area.

    Black folks don’t care about their females.

    Little girls, proud females, single moms, their own daughters, their own moms.

    Black men don’t give a fu@k about females, you’re just another b*tch to them.

    Look at Lovelle Mixon

    Dude raped several females in the Bay Area and amongst the most so-called radical Black-power support base of that piece of human garbage I never once heard anyone say a prayer to the females he raped.

    Look around you right now

    Can you find any of this recent dead punks supporters that have stopped to say a prayer to the pregnant girl that got murdered up in Seattle or the 13-year-old girl that this recent generic punk raped and then later tried to pimp out when she was 14?

    Paradise Gray?

    Dude with the fancy new white hat?

    Davey D?

    Yeah, I thought so.

    Pay attention, Sisters.

    This is what Black folks think about you.

  2. swaneagle harijan says:

    Geez, what a pile of hate there Hawk. Try not generalizing. Davey D has been one of the foremost articulators addressing sexism and rape. It is one thing to have specific critiques, it is another to make hateful blanket statements that further the cop induced misery. Sad indeed.

  3. darkoverlord says:

    Again we are treated to a police spokes person calling itself hawk.This vampire is always the first one out of the box when it comes to defending these TERMINATORS.Whats important is not whether this kid had a criminal record. Any human who saw the video watched police fully armed stand around for what seemed like more then 20mins watching this kid try and raise himself several times. Not one of the blk or white cops did shit until it looked like he’d bleed out. If this isn’t and excacution then what else do ya call it? What we saw was and object case book lesson,in terrorising the community.The comments by this clown hawk,prove just how reactionary and sadist these vampires are when it comes to a cover up.You notice we didn’t see any comments from this fool when the homeless white guy got killed on the bart. How come he didn’t talk about the mans past or his love or hatred for women.So its just another day and another dead NIGGER in the Bay area.

  4. e-scribblah says:

    while i cant say i trust SFPD, i think we need to have a fact-based and not an emotional analysis on this one. the facts as i understand them are: Kenneth Harding was arrested on charges of attempted pimping and was a suspect in a murder of a young black woman in Seattle. three days later he came to the Bay. He had a warrant out for his arrest. this likely explains why he ran from police. add to that the probability he was armed. regarding the shooting, Harding apparently fired one shot behind his back as he ran. SFPD followed with nine. witnesses hid the gun–which was later recovered–and removed shell casings from the scene. KTVU has video clearly showing the gun on the ground before it was hidden.

    In other words, Harding was NOT shot for being poor, black or for having a criminal past. he was shot because he fired on police while attempting to flee. So, we need to re-examine our “stop snitching” policy and stop fanning the flames of outrage when it masks ignorance.

    That said, if SFPD let Harding bleed out when they could have saved him, that’s a justifiable cause of anger — anger which is compounded and multiplied by dozens if not hundreds of similar incidents in the Bayview and elsewhere. An independent inquiry into this would seem to be warranted, along with an independent inquiry into the allegation that paramedics also failed to provide proper care for Grant after he had been shot.

    However, I dont see any connection here between this incident and the tenderloin video scandal. none whatsoever. and while there is often a lack of transparency and accountability in SFPD’s community relations, especially with Bayview residents, we need to pick our battles more wisely. Making Kenneth Harding or Lovelle Mixon a martyr may speak to romantic notions of revolutionary acts, but the truth is neither of these young men had a revolutionary consciousness, as evidenced by their treatment of women.

    Hawk’s blanket statement about blacks in the bay area is off-target, but some of his points do ring true. as for the white homeless guy killed by BART cops, that suggests they are murderers but not racists, as many had alleged following the death of Oscar Grant.

    Look, i’m all for pressing for accountability from law enforcement–and my resume speaks to this, for those who know me. But we need to use rationality, logic and common sense when making our case. I’d like to know what kind of home life Kenneth Harding had and what role his parents played in his upbringing. Ultimately, the system is culpable to some degree, but that doesn’t mean the abdication of personal responsibility is warranted.

    Now, if we’re going to make comparisons, let’s discuss the police response to the Oscar Grant, Lovelle Mixon, and Derrick Jones incidents in Oakland vs. the two white boys in Contra Costa County who rammed a police car and were taken into custody without being shot. This apparent disparity does speak to the presence of institutional racism, no question. But to some degree, Grant, Mixon, and Jones’ deaths all happened as a direct result of choices they made. That’s a bitter pill for many African Americans to swallow and i know some of y’all probably ain’t with me on this one.

    You can hate me now like Nas said, but we must hold up our existence to the light of truth. A rapist and wanna-be pimp isn’t a hero in my book. I’m not saying he deserved to die, but what are the chances he would have hurt somebody else–most likely a woman–had he not been shot?

    We see police as the enemy, and in some cases that’s true, but isn’t ignorance just as much of a problem in the black community, if not more?

  5. If you ignore the facts that they found the gun he used, found gunpowder residue on his hands, and have witnesses that saw him firing at the police then you are a victim of backfire bias.

  6. “Whats important is not whether this kid had a criminal record.”

    Funny you mention that, because I’ve noticed that’s another major difference between Black folks and most other cultures/races.

    White people judge other White people based on their character and they don’t give scum like child molesters a pass just because they happen to have the same skin color as them.

    This is not true for Black folks. Black folks don’t discriminate when it comes to turning any dead Black person into their newest crusade. You guys will turn rapists and child molesters into mayarts. Hell, if Phillip Garrido was Black and shot by the cops we would all be reading a post about it here right now and there would be a protest march scheduled for tomorrow.

    Sorry, Charlie. For some people character really does matter and you will be held accountable for your actions cause you can’t even front when Revelation comes.

    “Any human who saw the video watched police fully armed stand around for what seemed like more then 20mins watching this kid try and raise himself several times. Not one of the blk or white cops did shit until it looked like he’d bleed out. “

    I’m not an expert on what’s the police procedure after the cops have just shot a kid and called paramedics, but I would make two points

    1) Just because there was a gun on the ground doesn’t mean the kid is now automatically unarmed. Dude just tried to kill you a few seconds ago without any provocation, do you really now want to volunteer to get within striking distance of him?

    2) Maybe the cops could have done a better job if they weren’t surrounded and outnumbered by a mob shouting “fuck the police” If you’re facing a mob like that I think self preservation takes priority and your goal for the day is not to become the next Reginald Denny.

  7. “You notice we didn’t see any comments from this fool when the homeless white guy got killed on the bart. How come he didn’t talk about the mans past or his love or hatred for women”.

    Dude, Blogger Davey D was AWOL for about a month and this site slipped off my radar. Sue me.

    “So its just another day and another dead NIGGER in the Bay area.”

    Man, you gotta have more self-respect for yourself and your culture.

    “There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do do not want to lose their jobs.”

  8. swaneagle harijan says:

    Hawk your racism is as dense as brick. Hate doesn’t prove a thing.

  9. e-scribblah says:

    “I’ve noticed that’s another major difference between Black folks and most other cultures/races.”

    hmm, that’s a pretty slippery slope. no other races/cultures have criminal records, huh? that’s way beyond reality.

    “White people judge other White people based on their character and they don’t give scum like child molesters a pass just because they happen to have the same skin color as them. …if Phillip Garrido was Black and shot by the cops we would all be reading a post about it here right now and there would be a protest march scheduled for tomorrow.

    Hawk, Philip Garrido –who is white–had a sex slave in a shed for 20 years and had more than 60 visits by parole agents.

    “There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public.”

    actually, according to a 2010 PEW study, the mainstream media are largely responsible for painting a bleak picture of African American life. minorities and women own only 3% of this industry, so you are statistically as well as ideologically wrong.

    Hawk, i think i like you better when you don’t say too much. You really showed your true colors on those last two posts. That level of racism in 2011 is incongruous with trying to have an honest discussion about police brutality against black people.

    If i may make a suggestion, maybe you should consider keeping your true beliefs to yourself.

  10. “There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do do not want to lose their jobs.”

    Booker T. Washington
    1911

  11. Rob Thomas says:

    e-scribblah says:
    July 20, 2011 at 5:37 pm

    “i think we need to have a fact-based and not an emotional analysis on this one.”

    Later in the same comment, e-scribblah says:

    “I’m not saying he deserved to die, but what are the chances he would have hurt somebody else–most likely a woman–had he not been shot?”

    Yeah. No emotion or short sightedness there, buddy.

  12. e-scribblah says:

    rob, you didn’t answer the question. what ARE the chances of that happening? and what’s short sighted about speculating that a man with a history of violence against women–including an alleged murder charge–might be likely to continue his pattern? and where’s the emotion in my statement? here’s a clue, since it appears you need one: it’s cold, it’s hard, and it’s called reason. dude was on the run from his past. apparently, it caught up with him.

    when you examine the facts, emotion doesn’t matter. it’s not like i don’t feel for Bayview and the pain in that community, but ignoring the circumstances which led Harding to that point is foolhardy.

    Your sarcasm cannot be mistaken for wisdom, buddy.

  13. e-scribblah says:

    and hawk, the Booker T quote would have a lot more gravitas were it not preceded by a racist rant. anyone can cut and paste a quotation.

    your pessimism cannot be mistaken for wisdom, buddy.

  14. Rob Thomas says:

    e-scribblah,

    you’re implying his shooting is beneficial to society anyway because of his past, and that therefore it’s justified. You’ve condoned a police execution. That’s as “emotional” and short sighted as anything anyone will say on this thread. Whether or not he’d commit a crime again is beside the point. In a free country, police can not act as judge and jury. And anyone who implies they should, while they enjoy the rights of a free country themselves, is obviously letting their emotion get the best of them, and not thinking with their head.

  15. swaneagle harijan says:

    Justice is not part of this police state. What good does all the lip service do about law and order when police operate outside the law consistently heavily assaulting the most voiceless people? May resisting citizens have success, but i fear many will be hurt or killed. Masses need to rise, live solution and stop this insane violence. No more blood. All children face a very bleak future.

  16. e-scribblah says:

    “you’re implying his shooting is beneficial to society anyway because of his past, and that therefore it’s justified. You’ve condoned a police execution.”

    Wrong. that’s not what i said, Rob. please don’t put words in my mouth. you’re making an assumption which requires a leap past speculation into hyperbole. i NEVER said the shooting was justified. and i NEVER said the shooting was beneficial to society.

    That’s a typical straw-man argument which may apply to rightwing conservatives, of which i am not one.

    The correct inference from what i actually said was that Harding’s past history of criminal behavior is troubling at the very least, and suggests a pattern of violence against women which in all likelihood would have continued without intervention of some kind. I’m not going to stand up here and defend an alleged murderer and rapist, but i also don’t condone police violence.

    Also, to call police shooting back at someone who fired upon them first doesn’t fit my definition of a police “execution.” A clear example of a police execution would be the murder of unarmed Lil’ Bobby Hutton back in the ’60s, or Fred Hampton in the ’70s.

    However, concerning Kenneth Harding, let’s be real about this: if you shoot at cops, can you realistically expect any mercy from them? History says no.

    I’m not saying this is right, just that it is an established pattern of behavior. That’s just me being objective, rather than subjective.

    There’s nothing emotional in that argument whatsoever–it’s just a reasonable conclusion which is a lot more balanced than your view. Your willingness to take my statements out of context and supply your own interpretation apropos of what i actually said is far more emotional than anything i have typed.

    I agree that police should not be judge, jury and executioners and that in general, more accountability is needed on their behalf.

    But i also think that African Americans need to stop making martyrs out of people who don’t deserve such consideration.

    Rob, i have to ask: have you ever been to Bayview-Hunters Point? i have. in fact, i spent about six months researching an article there during the midst of the Westmob-Big Block turf war back in 1999-2000. So i’m very familiar with the socioeconomic and sociopolitical dynamic of that neighborhood, as well as the history of police-neighborhood relations.

    In other words, i’m not just talking out the side of my neck.

    So, again, i ask you: what are the chances that Harding would have committed a violent act, most likely against a woman, had he not be shot? your reticence, if not outright denial, tells me that these are questions you are not prepared to answer–which could explain why your analysis suffers from a lack of balance and objectivity.

    So, is this a case of police execution, or karmic retribution?

  17. I watch the video on monday, what I saw took me back to the late 60′s and early 70′s. There was no compassion for this young man. If he didn’t have the bus fare, why not let him go with a warning? was all of this worth it? The officers who shot this poor guy, I wonder how they feel now? I know that this horrific murder will forever change their lives. But, was it worth it? Lifes best teacher is often KARMA, may be tomorrow, a week, a month, a year, 5 years or ten years from now, it will happen. My heart goes out to the victims who witnessed this murder, they will be haunted by this young man’s untimely death at the hands of police officers, who are suppose to protect us. It will never be justified why this happened over bus fare.
    They say he’s involved in the murder of the young lady who was 7 weeks pregnant in Seattle, Wa. yet have no evidence supporting that theory. Now they say he tested positive for gunpowder residue. The 1st question I asked myself, when I saw the Sacbee newspaper saturday nite was: He had no reason to be shooting, he was just doing what kids do, when they’re up against it, run like hell. I was mortified when I saw what suspected all along, senseless murder. I am in awe to see that this kind of brutality is still carrying on these days, at the hands of police officers. I sad that this happened to this young man, without him getting the chance to defend himself in a court of law. He will always be innocent, because the police made sure he couldn’t talk.

  18. e-scribblah says:

    Butch, there are many lingering question which remain following this incident. No doubt witnessing the police shooting what to many onlookers appeared to be an unarmed individual was traumatic for all. But to call them ‘victims’ while glossing over the woman who was killed in Seattle seems like willful denial.

    “Seattle investigators were seeking Harding as a person of interest in a shooting Wednesday that killed 19-year-old Tanaya Gilbert and wounded three others, said Seattle police spokesman Sgt. Sean Whitcomb.”

    Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/07/18/BA0H1KBQDA.DTL#ixzz1SmOsb7Lu

    and, to call this ‘senseless murder’ doesn’t fit the apparent facts: “Police officials said at a news conference that ShotSpotter, a gunshot detection and location system, had recorded 10 shots fired over the course of six seconds Saturday as police chased 19-year-old Kenneth Wade Harding near Third Street in the Bayview – one shot at first, followed 1.9 seconds later by nine in rapid succession.

    The technology cannot determine which shots came from which guns. But Police Chief Greg Suhr said witnesses have told investigators that they saw the muzzle flash from a gun that Harding was shooting from under his arm.”

    Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/07/18/BA0H1KBQDA.DTL#ixzz1SmOaghP2

    “The discovery of gunshot residue on Harding’s right hand “supports statements from witnesses that Harding held the gun in his right hand as he fired at the police officers,” Esparza said.

    The residue could indicate either that Harding fired a gun, was in close proximity to a gun as it was fired, or touched a gun or other object with gunshot residue, Esparza said.”

    “Police did not find a gun at the scene, near Third Street and Oakdale Avenue, but an online video taken just after Harding was shot showed what appeared to be a gun on the ground. Police later found what they believe was the gun, a .45-caliber pistol, at the home of a parolee in the Bayview.”

    Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/07/19/BAUR1KCGBA.DTL#ixzz1SmO0CYgO

    You write: “He had no reason to be shooting, he was just doing what kids do, when they’re up against it, run like hell.”

    It doesn’t take a leap of faith to say that an armed suspect in a murder case had plenty of reason to flee, since he would have been apprehended and possibly charged if caught. While Harding is entitled to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, his actions can’t necessarily be chalked up to “doing what kids do.” Do kids kill other kids? Do kids attempt to force women into prostitution?

    When i was a kid, we rode bikes all over town and snuck into the Cal stadium to play football. Times, obviously, have changed.

    That said, given the history of community relations between SFPD and Bayview residents, it would seem that an outside, independent investigation is the only way to ascertain for certain that the police account is accurate and verifiable.

    In the interests of transparency, the SFPD should turn over all relevant evidence, including the .45 allegedly used by Harding in the shooting, the forensic test and the ShotSpotter record, to outside investigators and suspend the officers involved until their account can be confirmed.

    so, to answer Davey’s original question: No, we can’t trust SFPD’s credibility at this point. there is plenty of reason to be skeptical, even if evidence appears to point in the opposite direction.

    Still, i’ll repeat what i said earlier: our response to this incident must be guided by facts and not emotion. We may have a right to be angry over past incidents, but we should use this opportunity to opening a meaningful dialogue which hopefully can result in some changes. The police must be held accountable for their actions, but so too must the black community.

  19. Rob Thomas says:

    e-scribblah,

    thanks for your 3rd explanation for your support of a police execution. I imagine your 4th will be even longer winded, with more fancy words and dubious attempts to accuse me of putting words into your mouth. Anyone can read your comments and discern for themselves. What are the chances he wouldn’t commit a violent act again if he weren’t shot? lol. You’re funny. Just what any trigger happy cop would say.

  20. Now they’re sayiing he shot himself, the medical examiner was paid off or threatened. The parents need and independent autopsy done.

  21. Rob Thomas says:

    Man, I just watched the cell phone video at SF Bayview.com. Scribblah, you’ve got real problems, man. Real problems. The only positive things I can say about you is that you’re an educated man, and you know whose side your on. That’s it. I can’t think of anything else good to say about you, because there is nothing.

  22. “The parents need and independent autopsy done.”

    Do you know how to read?

    “Biel said Thursday that he understands there may be skepticism about the latest evidence revealed by authorities. He asked the public to keep in mind that it is the result of investigations by the ***civilian medical examiner*** and the firearms unit of the city crime lab.”

  23. swaneagle harijan says:

    The track record of the SFPD and it’s cronies speaks volumes in relation to their behavior towards Bayview/Hunter’s Point communities and SF poor in general. Who can believe these killers and their backers? Those who align with such racist violence.

  24. e-scribblah says:

    Rob, i wasn’t trying to intimidate you with “fancy words.” But apparently, that’s not difficult to do. You’re probably not going to like this, but according to today’s SF Chronicle, Harding shot himself with a .380, which is not a caliber carried by SFPD. That doesn’t sound like a police execution, more like the last act of a desperate man who had reached the end of his rope. It’s possible that Harding accidentally shot himself after being shot, but also possible that he intentionally ended his own life, knowing that he would be arrested and charged with murder in the Seattle incident, and never be a free man again. Indeed, that’s consistent with the behavior of criminals who know they are guilty of crimes, even if the police don’t know it at the time.

    as for whose side i’m on, i’m on the side of truth. what side are you on?

    now, let’s just say for the sake of playing devil’s advocate that you are correct in your speculation that Harding was unarmed and was killed by SFPD for no reason other than he ran. that would mean: a) a police officer would have had to be carrying a non-official weapon to fire the fatal shot; b) SFPD would have to have engaged in a massive cover-up involving the civilian medical examiner, forensics, beat officers, and the chief — all in the face of intense public scrutiny; and c) there would have to be collusion between SFPD, the Seattle police department, and the SF Chronicle regarding Harding’s past criminal history.

    Does that seem likely to anyone with a rational mind?

    Now if that implausible scenario were correct, keep in mind that if it were revealed that evidence were faked or there was collusion, it would essentially be the end of many careers of SFPD and Seattle PD and public trust would be irrevocably compromised in both cities. Also, if the SF Chronicle were found to be faking stories to make the police look good, the public fallout would be immense and could sink that paper. Again, does that seem likely to anyone with a rational mind?

    But even if that turned out to be the case, that still doesn’t explain the video posted on YouTube and shown on the evening news which shows the silver .380 handgun Harding allegedly used lying on the ground a few feet from his body. Any answers for that?

    And, you still haven’t answered my question: what are the chances that a man with a history of violence against women, a criminal record, no education, and no job prospects would continue to commit violence against women without intervention–such entering as a counseling program–? From a probability standpoint, i’d say those chances are pretty high.

    I’m not sure, Rob, why you can’t answer a direct question with a direct answer. But lashing out at me and making erroneous assumptions seems like a pretty weak move — that of someone who cant add up the facts and draw a logical conclusion, even when those facts are as plain as day. You probably believe in the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus too.

  25. Rob Thomas says:

    “And, you still haven’t answered my question: what are the chances that a man with a history of violence against women, a criminal record, no education, and no job prospects would continue to commit violence against women without intervention–such entering as a counseling program–? From a probability standpoint, i’d say those chances are pretty high.”

    I’m glad you keep saying this because you remind everyone that you condone police executions, and that everything you say should be taken with a grain of salt, no matter how long winded and educated you try to come off as.

  26. e-scribblah says:

    Rob, you keep evading the question. that just proves you’re as weak as your argument. dude, you don’t even know me. if you did, you’d know how ridiculous it is to say that i condone police executions. nothing could be further from the truth. i also don’t condone ignorance –especially in the face of empirical evidence (i.e. a provable fact that shows unquestionable results, just in case you are unfamiliar with the term) that Harding executed himself. nor do i condone violence against women.

    You’re entitled to your own opinion, obviously, but you have zero credibility because you base your opinion on nothing more than your own erroneous belief–in other words, there’s not a shred of factual evidence to support your assumption.

    but, if nothing else, at least i have provided you with a list of words to look up, should you choose to build your vocabulary skills and educate yourself. after all, knowledge is power.

  27. Rob Thomas says:

    Of course I’m weak, Scribblah. I won’t grab my pitch fork and lantern, and join your mob, which cries, “He was a thug, he would have killed more people anyway, good for the police!”. I’ll accept that, Scribblah. I’d like nothing more than for a person like yourself to think I’m weak. Because as soon as I live up to your definition of strong, I’ve joined your dark, hateful universe. No thanks.

  28. Rob Thomas says:

    Yep, that’s right. I need to get educated. Because I won’t just look at a citizen being shot in the back by police and say “he deserved it, fuck him!”. That’s right. Im uneducated, and weak. Keep them coming, Scribblah. I take this shit as COMPLIMENTS coming from you. So keep them coming.

  29. e-scribblah says:

    rob, i never said harding deserved it. and there are no kudos to SFPD from me over the death of a young blackman. but by the same token, the girl he raped and tried to pimp didnt deserve it, did she? and what about the pregnant woman who was shot and killed? did she deserve it? you need to stop trying to make this about you and look at the bigger picture. ignorant people like you are the reason we keep holding ourselves back. look at all the people who shouted down the SFPD chief, instead of calling for an independent investigation and full transparency. if you’re not part of the solution, then what are you…?

  30. e-scribblah says:

    “I won’t just look at a citizen being shot in the back by police and say “he deserved it, fuck him!”.”

    dude, you are tripping. harding was shot in the leg. he shot himself in the neck. your argument is weak because you base it on factually-inaccurate information. insulting me doesn’t change that. furthermore, your mock outrage doesn’t change the fact that harding had a history of violence against women. apparently, you condone that. that makes you weaker than your argument.

  31. swaneagle harijan says:

    Resisting abuse against women does NOT justify killing. Who believes SFPD? How many of them are abusers? Clear your path there e-scribblah.

  32. e-scribblah says:

    swaneagle, i’m not a police apologist so i’m not going to defend SFPD. they have a long ways to go in terms of transparency and accountability. but you need to be careful with what you’re saying. think about the worse sin and the greater good. i’m ok with a serial abuser getting karmic retribution. not okay with SFPD running roughshod in the hood. what more can i say? (top billin’)

  33. swaneagle harijan says:

    I work daily addressing abuse of women on a visceral level. I know most women and girls do not feel safe calling on the police. I also know that most men, overwhelmingly, do little to nothing to assure equity in this arduous life. The root of why men abuse must be addressed, consequently it is crucial to hear the stories of child soldiers, recruited death squads, rapists, abusers—within the context of confining them more effectively than warape unculture does which has vested interest in the anxiety and mistrust keeping us divided. What is happening is insanity with an agenda that has nothing to do with any kind of justice. NONE. We must be taking responsibility in our communities because it is the right thing to do period. So first how do we make sure the most vulnerable are safe, have access to healing, and the predators MUST be confined, not killed. It is the burden of being human that we are saddled with effectively stopping predators. Sadly, warape unculture teaches their troops to be sadistic killers. So many men in the military come back with no healing and unleash monstrous abuse on their families keeping such crimes going one generation to the next. Most abuse is closeted, unspoken and perpetrators go free. They go free even if they are caught and convicted. Harding should never have been released to begin with. Such criminals receive sentences that are way too light cause such crimes are barely ever treated with the seriousness required for authentic justice. Such girls, forced into child sex slavery, have their lives ruined. Over and over again sexual assault on all levels is not treated as seriously as is essential and perpetrators repeat their offenses. The so called justice system KNOWS this and they simply do not care.

    But, the way Harding was killed is not justified at all. He could have been anyone shot down in the way police keep shooting down men of color all over this country. You cannot know the history or justify such killings. That really is not saving anyone from any monster, let me tell you. This sick society does not care what happens to women, children, the poor, the elderly or men either. We have to have integrity and balance somewhere. His story will never be fully known and knowing that is part of how such criminals are shaped. We need to know what kind of workable prevention can be utilized if there ever is a true chance to do that.

    I cannot ever rally around the killing of anyone who has committed monstrous acts. Such people had it done to them, had monstrous modeling, had monstrous abuse, so where is it ever stopped? The police are no help and neither is the death penalty.

    Most people do not pay attention to what goes on around them that is intertwined with how mass media brain washes any who are stuck to tv, entertainment filled with degradation, rape, monstrous killing in the name of “fun” via sick music, sick video games, sick movies, etc. This society fueled by unprecedented greed, selfishness and warped individualism thrives on the normalization of predators. US trains more predators than anywhere else on earth. So what do we do about all this? Keep killing people to show people who kill people that killing people is wrong?

    There are also reports that Harding is the wrong guy, that the woman killed in Seattle was not pregnant, that he was unarmed, on and on…. The full truth has yet to be revealed. We are all pawns in this amerikkkan madness movie infecting all of the earth. I resistant that will all my being.

  34. e-scribblah says:

    swaneagle, interesting post. I agree with almost everything in your first graph. i do want to make it clear that i’m not arguing that harding’s past behavior justified his ignoble death. what i have a problem with is making martyrs out of people who are preying on our community and ascribing to them some sort of revolutionary consciousness which they did not, in fact, possess. i also have a problem with police brutality. and i also find it problematic that a misguided sense of outrage invariably results in a lot of rabble-rousing talk but no change in the system.

    it is true that we may never know all the facts. but that’s no excuse for spreading disinformation in the name of quote-unquote righteousness.

    “I cannot ever rally around the killing of anyone who has committed monstrous acts. Such people had it done to them, had monstrous modeling, had monstrous abuse, so where is it ever stopped? The police are no help and neither is the death penalty.”

    this needs to be part of a larger conversation. in harding’s case, his criminal history was not known by SFPD at the time of his death. that only came out later. but then you look at someone like Philip Garrido, who was clearly someone who never should have been paroled. there are also plenty of people who suffered abuse but managed to heal and didnt become abusers themselves.

    “US trains more predators than anywhere else on earth. So what do we do about all this? Keep killing people to show people who kill people that killing people is wrong?”

    i see the paradox here, but you’re getting away from the facts.

    “There are also reports that Harding is the wrong guy, that the woman killed in Seattle was not pregnant, that he was unarmed, on and on….”

    the civilian medical examiner’s report states that harding shot and killed himself. so he could not have been unarmed. unless you can explain how he could have been shot with a different caliber weapon than what the two SFPD officers carried, that’s the only logical conclusion. the videos taken from two different angles rule out the possibility that the gun was planted on him, as some have suggested. for one thing if that was the case, it would have been planted near the body, not 30 feet away. and SFPD would have had to shoot him, place the gun in his hand to transfer the GSR, put a .380 shell in his jacket, then kick the weapon away–all within seconds. the timing of the videos, which start just moments after the actual shooting and the presence of witnesses makes this a near-certain impossibility.

    also he was shot in the neck at point-blank range, at a trajectory which makes it impossible for officers to have fired the fatal shot. and it’s extremely doubtful that the two officers would have drawn a backup or throwaway gun in the course of pursuit given that there were bystanders and witnesses.

    you simply can’t argue with empirical evidence and ironclad logic.

    we can’t presume guilt in the seattle incident, but if he was involved, that might help to explain why he ran from police rather than be written up for a simple fare evasion ticket. remember the seattle killing happened just 3 days before the SF shooting. that suggests harding was on the lam. if he was a felon in possession of a gun, he would have had reason to evade the cops.

    remember that he triggered the sequence of events by running. then he escalated the situation by firing at the cops. once you do that, you can expect police to fire back. it’s cruel irony, however, that he was not killed by a police bullet but by his own gun.

    i think this incident is a wake-up call to the black community to take a hard look at ourselves. if as you say US society breeds predators and abusers, then we need to not play into that. making martyrs out of Lovelle Mixon and Kenneth Harding is not going to do that. i see a big difference between a Derrick Jones or an Oscar Grant and a Kenneth Harding. so while we should be outraged about actual instances of police violence, we also can’t turn a blind eye to black on black crime.

  35. e-scribblah says:

    just to add on to the last point, i remember when the allegations of abuse first surfaced against Yusuf Bey and Your Black Muslim Bakery. there was a lot of denial from the African American community, and particularly black politicians–among them Barbara Lee and Ron Dellums. Because those allegations were not taken seriously–even after the abused women came forward–the Bakery was allowed to continue its predatory acts on its own community, which continued after Bey’s death. it was only after the murder of journalist Chauncey Bailey that these deeds were revealed. Had the African American political establishment and the black community in Oakland taken a stand against the bakery earlier, at least four people might still be alive today.

  36. FRUITOFISLAM19 says:

    Sad to say don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time.Mr Harding should have had his day in court like everybody else. Black people can not condone this kind of unrighteous behavior of black brothers who rape or pimp their own black women.They are no martyrs because they stood for nothing.Idolizing pimps,gangstas and drug dealers isn’t the way to go in life.As for the crooked cops, whether black or white can’t ever be trusted.They’re here to protect and serve whites and taught to fear blacks and latinos.They’re civil servants and not judge,jury and executioners. As for the Black Muslim Bakery started by Dr.Yusef Bey in the 1960′s in Oakland,CA served it purpose.Although know defunct for a couple of years due after his death due to infighting between his sons.Yusef Bey IV took over but got off the right path and was involved in money laundering,extortion,murder among other things.The father,Dr.Yusef Bey had his own problems while living involving crimes against women which should have been handled in court.Everybody is innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.For some on the board,all Black Muslims must be evil or bad or morally corrupt. Sorry to say,that’s very far from the truth.The Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught Black People here in the wilderness of North America to take God out of the sky and put God in your heart.As a Black Muslim originally from the Democratic Republic of Congo who is in the Nation Of Islam knows all too well what war does to people minds growing up during civil wars off and on that happened when Europeans get involved in your business.Christianity failed black people centuries ago because the devils are killing and raping your african ancestors and at the same time teaching religion to you.That makes no sense.Its illogical.As for black people who suffer from self-hatred and ignorance, some choose to and some know no better because of mental slavery.No knowledge of SELF causes this and must be destroyed to ever achieve any peace of mind and black on black crime would cease when brothas and sistas learn to love themeselves first, then we in the black community can fix what gone wrong in our black families and our own society.

  37. swaneagle harijan says:

    Well said.

  38. e-scribblah says:

    FOI, i agree. i should probably point out that Yusuf Bey split from the NOI decades ago and formed his own splinter organization, which did some positive things for the community but unfortunately a lot of negative acts, as time has told. it’s obvious we have a cancer in our community, that is called black on black crime. we cannot blame this on police. we must respect women as we would respect our mothers and sisters, and also help women to respect themselves. it really does come down to knowledge of self…peace.

  39. Where is all the Hip Hop news gone?

  40. Polcelink.com is racist says:

    Jim Bragg, retired police officer, is a member of the policelink.com website under the profile name Robocop33. He posts these, in my opinion, very racist comments about black people and flash mobs on the policelink.com website

    “I have not seen anything posted about this problem and very little is even appearing in the news! Why?
    Suddenly there have been numerous incidents of “Flash Mobs” suddenly turning up and they do one of three things.
    1. They either suddenly trash businesses or other places that are either owned by or used by mainly White people.
    2. They suddenly appear in stores and then start taking goods and walking out with them, (stealing), without paying.
    3. They suddenly apear as a large group and physically assault and brutally beat any and all White People in the area.
    Thes “Flash Mobs” consist of a large number of Blacks who seem to delight in doing this. They attack ONLY Whites and these Mobs are made up of ONLY Blacks. THIS is nothing more than bigoted attacks from one race of individuals against another.and cannot be allowed! We would not allow this to happen if it were White mobs attacking Blacks or any other minority group. I do not care who is doing this to whom, it is not only illegal but immoral and dispicable.
    The NAACP and other prominant Black groups and Black Leaders also need to be speaking out against this. So far the only Black Leader to do this has been the Mayor of either Chicago or Detroit, not sure which one. Come on folks, this is wrong no matter who the victims are.”

    http://policelink.monster.com/topics/82918-flash-mobs/posts

    Let policelink.com know how you feel about their members posting these type of racist comments at info@policelink.com

  41. GregDharma your icon says more than enough about who you are and your beliefs. You’re just a puppet. A marionette for the agenda. A picture is worth a thousand words.

  42. Living here in the San Franisco,Bay Area, id like to wish the hate of black women by black men was not true , but it is, these brothers out here are so damage even beyond repair, i know that local law enforcement has gone way far beyond the legal limits of distroying our men here, their is no doubt about it, but the babies of crack addicted fathers and mothers are grown now,mental health damage runs a muck here in whats left of the black community here in the bay,.But i must say a met a small group of GOOD brothers that are truly trying to make a diffrence here in SF,but the POLICE JUST WILL NOT BEND. the police continue to remind our men here how worthless they are, so they treat their women the way they feel about themselves……here in california somekinda of white backlash has accured.seems whitemen are out to finish off the little connection blackmen/women have left by damaging and taunting our men.

  43. PLEASE DONT BELIEVE ANYTHING U READ OR HEAR THAT THE SF POLICE SAY HAPPENED IN THE KILLING OF THAT 19 YEAR OLD IN SF,THEY HAVE COME UP WITH MANY DIFFRENT LIES TO TELL THE PUBLIC,EYEWITINESS SAY THEIR WAS NEVER A GUN IN THE KIDS HAND,THEY CHASED HIM DOWN THE STREET IN DAYLITE WITH THE WORLD WATCHING THEM KILL THAT BOY,THEY EVEN PLANTED A GUN IN THE STREETS.AND SAID THE BOY SHOT AT THEM FIRST,BUT MANY WITINESSESS BOTH BLACK AND WHITE SAY THATS A LIE,BAY AREA POLICE HAVE KILLED 8 UNARMED BLACKMEN IN THE LAST2 YEARS,IN RETAILIATION OF THE 4 COPS KILLED 2 YEARS AGO BY A YOUNGBLACKMAN TIRED OF BEING HARRASSED BY BAY AREA POLICE.WE NEED HELP HERE NOW !!!

  44. swaneagle harijan says:

    Seems like there needs to be an occupation or even a peace camp where cops are killing people. It is so awful, slow motion genocide. Appreciate your post renay. Wish i didn’t live so far away. Blessings to you. Your perspective is very critical.

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