Before there was 50 There was Tim Dog-Remembering the East-West Coast War

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daveyd-raider2In the wake of the recent skirmish between Joe Budden and Raekwon‘s entourage  at Rock the Bells and the skewering remarks that Game has directed toward Jay-Z, the topic of beefs in Hip Hop has reared its head once again. For many of today’s rap fans they look at success of 50 Cent and him using beef  as way to bring about much needed attention as the blueprint for navigating the maze we call the music industry. They also look at 50 as a pioneering figure who jumped all this off.

Its true that 50 is the poster child for beef. He’s definitely made it a science of sorts and will probably admit to it. But he’s by no means the first on this block. Before there was 50 we have to go back a good 18 years to a guy named Tim Dog who many claim set off the whole east-west coast drama when he released his song ‘Fuck Compton’ .

Tim Dog's infamous Fuck Compton record was the said to be the first lyrical salvo the what became Hip Hop's East-West coast war

Tim Dog's infamous Fuck Compton record was the said to be the first lyrical salvo the what became Hip Hop's East-West coast war

 I wouldn’t say Tim Dog set off the east-west coast beef  persay. First the east-west coast beef was really Bad Boy vs Death Row (Puffy vsSuge and 2pac vs Biggie). They had personal issues that spilled over into underlying simmering coastal tensions that had long existed even before Tim Dogg came along.

What was at the root was the perception of  New York being resitent to artists and music from outside the 5 boroughs.  More specifically the anger was really at New York based Hip Hop radio shows and publications like the Source where on air personalities and critics routinely dismissed and outright dissed Hip Hop music coming from other parts of the country.

From a New Yorker’s perspective the argument was very simple. The Big Apple was the Mecca and birthplace of Hip Hop and hence  set the standard for all to follow or so they thought.  If your music didn’t sound a certain way or your flows weren’t in step with the word mastery being executed by top NY based artist at the time, you were considered wack. Such pronouncements might find their way in print. They might be uttered on a popular radio show like Chuck Chillouts, Red Alerts, or Marley Marls. They were far too often reflected in record reviews.

Outside of NY especially in places like Cali, people were disheartned and then angered when folks would see or hear about their hometown heroes being publicly dissed. Here in Oakland, we all heard stories about artists like Too Short who were extremely popular, could easily pack a show and have thousands chanting along to his songs would go to NY and get booed at his own album release party. I was in NY at the New Music Seminar in 89 or 90 when famed A&R rep Dante Ross sat on a panel and talked about how Miami Bass which was popular throughout the south was wack. An enraged Luther Campbell aka Uncle Luke popped up out of his seat and rushed the stage ready to smash on Dante. Later Luke underscored what many outside of NY was feeling when he pointed out that NY rappers are always shown love on the radio and by the people all around the country, but as soon as folks come to NY the birthplace of a music and culture everyone loves it was outright disrespect. Luke was determined not to be disrespected that day… But New York never really changed. If you was from outside the city you weren’t gonna get too much love.. Whether you from Miami, Oakland or Compton..Enter NWA..

NWA helped break the stranglehold New York had on Hip Hop. They snatched the spotlight in the early 90s and made Compton Hip Hop's Mecca

NWA helped break the stranglehold New York had on Hip Hop. They snatched the spotlight in the early 90s and made Compton Hip Hop's Mecca

Niggas With Attitude did at the time what no other group outside NY could do capture the imagination and media attention of the country like their NY counterparts. They not only brought the spotlight to the west coast.  They also let folks know what many of the indy west coast artists were already discovering which is you didn’t really need   to go to NY to make it-There were 49 other states.  NWA grew, gangsta rap grew, west coast Hip Hop grew, not just in popularity but also with cats getting money. What was also growing was the awareness that what NWA was speaking on was real-There was gang culture that was becoming bigger then life with each song and folks out west especially in LA were realishing in it…New York no longer had the same lure. The rest of the country especially the west coast had come up.

Compton was Hip Hop’s new Mecca when Tim Dog stepped on the scene and attempted to bring the spotlight back to NY.. His song Fuck Compton raised alot of eyebrows as he stepped to NWA hard with a song that was undeniably good..Tim got props when he addressed the controversy surrounding Dr Dre who at the time had made headlines for beating up female rapper and TV host Dee Barnes at an album release party for Eazy E’s group BWP (Bitches w/ Problems) party in front of dozens of artists.  Tim came at Dre hard. What was even crazier was he had a video which they used to rock on the playboy channel and sometimes the Box. I look at the video now and I see a persona that would one day be a 50 Cent.  The biggest irony to this whole thing is that Tim Dogg eventually moved to LA  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzv7ZDqvWn4

Another track to catch where Tim Dogg cobntinued his lyrical assault and challnge to Compton and NWA was with the video ‘Step to Me’. You can peep the video here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzF_NlXYZFI

Now after Tim Dogg dropped his joint there were a number of responses from West Coast groups including DJ Quik ‘Way 2 Funky’, Dr Dre with his infamous ‘Dre Day’ cut and Compton’s Most Wanted’ ‘Who’s Fucking Who’. One of my favorits came from Tweety Bird Locwho is from Kelly Park..  He got at Tim Dogg with this cut ‘South Bronx Can’t Touch Compton’

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4FKcG0dPfg

Dr Dre eventually came after Tim Dog in the song Dre Day where he got at Eazy E as well as Luther Campbell.. In this track Snoop goes after Tim Dog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPaNaD2gr-E

People didn’t really trip too hard with Snoop going after Tim Dog in Dre Day. Tim’s image was never really shown as Snoop was able to further establish himself as an emcee by going toe to toe with him on the lyrical tip. Not sure if people remember but around that time Snoop was offering up a million dollars to anyone who could beat him in a freestyle. I need to check for the video we did where he spoke to me directly about that.. He was definitely all about perfecting his lyrical prowess. But people were pretty much feeling Snoop. What raised eyebrows and intensified the east-west coast thing above and beyond the Bad Boy vs Death Row beef was the video to New York, New York by the Dogg Pound where Snoop is kicking down buildings.

People raised the same objections about the video that west coast artists raised a few years ealier which was ‘Why dis us when we show you love’?  The beef had also taken new levels because during the video shoot shots were fired at DPG after Biggie went on Hot 97 and spoke about West Coast cats being in town dissing the NY.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X_JJeVJLFc

Tim Dogg put out a song responding to Snoop called ‘Bitch with a Perm’  but by then Snoop was riding high and Tim Dog was starting to be seen as yesterday’s news. The East-West Coast beef was in full effect and the Jiggy era was starting to impact Hip Hop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXRJ6qcqUAs

 Return to Davey D’s Hip Hop Corner

Comments

  1. e-scribblah says:

    tim dog would have gotten much more props had he actually been able to rap. and davey, you forgot Rodney O and Joe Cooley’s response, “Fuck New York.” while there is a historical aspect to remembering these songs, it’s really kind of divisive on a lot of levels that hip-hop artists felt the need to go ther int he first place. ultimately, i dont think anyone benefitted from that, except maybe the cable stations who show “Beef” continuously and ya boy DJ Vlad.

    • Unless there was an actual song.. that Rodney O and them did where they addressed NY that I somehow forgot I don’t really recall their ‘response’ being the thing.. They had a provocative album cover, but I don’t recall the song being out there like Tweety, MC Eiht and others..

      As far as the benefit.. I actually think in many ways it did..This resistence NY had to folks forced alot of folks to really discover other paths to success.. I recall those discussions at New Music Seminar where Luke and others were pretty much saying Fuck NY you can keep her we’ll build in other places… I think if NY had been more open folks would’ve bypassed alot of nooks and crannies and went straight to Mecca..

      As for NY, it eventually forced some to finally open up.. I was at Ice Cube and Del’s first show at the Apollo..I was backstage with them and recall how impressed people were and how pysched up Cube was that he won over that audience. He felt like a corner was turned..

      Where I think it went downhill was the Bad Boy vs Death Row thing..which as I mentioned it spilled over..into what was already an issue

      The other thing was just recalling how Tim Dog used tjhis thing to bring attention to himself.. years before 50..he was bodacious on that.. and whether or not folks thought he was corney from 91-93 we knew his name.. I actually though he could flow .. Step 2 me was hot.. and at the time he was far from corny..

  2. homie this shit seems to me like you promoting beef

    • Hardly.. if I was promoting beef i would promote it.. Its a topic on a lot of people’s minds so lets look at some history behind this and lets talk abnout it from various angles.. Not gonna act like nothings going on after spending an entire day at Rock the Bells seeing mini pow wows and geting text after txt about the drama between Budden and raekwon..

  3. I have a couple things to say :

    20 years later, is anyone left who thinks this Dante Ross guy wasn’t 110% right about Miami bass? Allot of the NYC bias in the early 90s was founded in the fact that’s where the best hip hop was being made. Timeless albums were coming out of NYC. Tracks that still retain freshness not gimmicky stripper music. The shift towards parity among the regions was not based on beef but quality of product.

    Too Short got a raw deal in NYC but that would be about the only one crying bias who has a legitimate claim prior to NWA.

    Was there ever a time Tim Dog spoke for anyone other than Tim Dog? You think NYC was threatened by Compton so they allowed Tim f-n Dog to set it off? Not KRS, big daddy kane, anyone from Native tongues or DITC?

    Budden v. Raekwon? I think it’s pretty clear that after a decade of trying to succeed on his limited skills Joe B scoped out what 50 did with his limited skills and is going the beef route. No one in Wu Tang should legitimize that fool.

    • to answer your question Tim.. 20 years later he wasn’t correct.. Miami bass was and still is enjoyed as evidenced by the sold out show I saw the other week with 2 live Crew.. in texas.. An MC Shy D song or Afro Rican still gets the crowd hyped.. and its in the pantheon of old school cuts that bring back fond memories for those who enjoyed those moments during that time..
      I for one still enjoy miami bass..

      Second point miami Bass was more song driven..because it was dance oriented.. meaning you didn’t have entire conceptual albums.. so No you can’t measure Afro Rican’s Give it Waht you Got to PE’s Takes a nation.. But Don’t Belive the Hype and Give It what You Got will draw huge applause on the floor at a club. It did back in 89 and it does to this day for the audiences that enjoyed it..

      The other group that got a raw deal was Joe Cooley who was robbed of his championship back in those days.. DJ Quik wasn’t shown love nor was WC and Madd Circle who I went to New Music Seminar with the year Dante was confronted..

      Tim got mad love for his song.. KRS, BDK and Native Tongue folks were actually smart enough to always show love and respect when they came out west. They never rode the raw raw Fuck everything except NY stuff.. I recall kane in interviews showing mad love for folks .. Q-Tips cousin was major factor in 69 ville here in oakland so he came with a widened perspective..
      Tim had an in when he dissed NWA because Dre had beaten up Dee barnes and then threatened to whup Ed Lover who was there managing her at the time..

      I can’t really say whats what about Joe B and raekwon.. It was dumb for them to fight.. but people are definitely feeling slaughter house saw that yesterday..

  4. sorry I hate when people post 2x in a row but I have a question : What about Ice T? He predates NWA, is from the west, and was really succesful because he made good music. Did he struggle with NYC audiences? I don’t remember ever hearing about it if it happened.

    • Ice most certainly did struggle.. and he addressed the coastal bias on several occassions. Ice got love because he was a Zulu King. he even had a group called Zulu Kings and hooked up many of the pioneers when they came to LA. I spoke with Whipper Whip about this a couple of years ago and he told me that Ice was respected because his hustle game was tight. When the NY cats came to LA they realized that Ice was not bullshitting. he really did have money and homes and could actually put cats on.. But make no mistake Ice wasn’t getting played.. 6 in the Morning was ignored in NY as was Batter ram andBass by King T and all the other hit songs that came out in the west at that time..

      lastly the disrespect to west coast artists came from radio djs not playing them and rap critics dissing them in print.. Ice was part of the pioneering camp of Hip Hop who also found themselves at odds with some of the radio cats who weren’t showing love.. mele-Mel talks about having to pull coattails on some of the cats..

  5. Frits van de Wereld says:

    Why New York doesn’t like rap music from other cities also has to do with the fact that in every country the major city feels better than the rest. Its the same in every country. If you’re from a dominant city the other people sound like farmers and there’s nothing you or they can do about it. Its like this in France with Paris, UK with London, Netherlands with Amsterdam etc. etc.

    Tim Dog was the man!

  6. Frits van de Wereld says:

    This is kind of proven by the fact that many New York rap minded people think that Houston Scarface, Chi-Town Do or Die, San Francisco’s Rappin 4-Tay and Vallejo’s Mac Dre all make the same kind of music (“gangsta rap”)

  7. Beef sells records and drives the game but only true talent drives careers. The Rolling Stones dissed the Beatles and the Sex Pistols dissed everybody but who’s still standing? You can start off in the biz by being controversial for whatever reason, even just making songs about how somebody else’s shit is wack ala LL and Moe Dee, but you only gonna stick around if the music is good. During the era of Tim Dog, rapper’s lyrics were used to judge whether or not a rapper was good. So from that perspective Tim Dog was a good rapper, not great. The incoming generation of rappers he had to contend with was the beginning of rappers that could flow. It was almost as if the content of the lyrics was less important and the rhyme scheme and lyrical approach was more melodic and more MUSICAL. Gangsta rap was like this in that the way the lyrics were delivered had as much to do with the song as the music and the content. From this perspective, rappers like Snoop were great, and Tim Dog was at best mediocre. 4-Tay wasn’t so much a good rapper as he was a good story teller and the music was good. Tay and Short were on the same level but did they have beef?

  8. Ive been followin the east vs west since getting into hip hop or id say at least shortly after, being that i came of age during the rise of west coast dominance. I also caught the east coast movement in full swing when i was younger. my favs were gangstarr, Poor Righteous Teachers, KRS, but im from Oakland. I’d say alot of early west coast hip hop favored the east coast sound the beats and rhymes were much faster and gritty from hammer to cube,ice t, even nwa and short. there was definately influence and love there, admiration for the mecca. it was a rap thing a hood thing. but all the music that was big was mostly east coast, that was the standard. there was even a battle between Self destruction and All in the same game which one better? However that doesnt mean that hip hop wasnt goin on in its own way in other places and it doesnt mean that NY have all the rights to hip hop. hip hop is a hood thing a culture thing. KRS told me himself when i toured w him that hip hop was already there in Oakland, Chicago, Florida,Seattle and the elements were already embedded. But the East pushed the movement 1st. It was nothing to hear or see X-Clan,Mc Lyte, LL cool j on the radio or on a video as the standard of hiphop back then. I was a fan, and i would say i liked it more than west coast rap because i myself was brain washed by the biased but also because the music was dope and they were runnin shit. I had this convo w Crooked I at rock the bells jus a day after the altercation in L.A about west coast lyricism and growth. As i became an emcee starting high school the tide was turning Snoop was out (who for yall who dont know was labelmates w Crooked at one point)…and every car goin by was the Chronic, but i had Redman, i was into the wildstyles of NY which was more lyrics u had to decipher, i was tryna escape the harsh realities of west coast in your face rap of which i lived amongst everyday not just in rap but as a young man in East oakland. I gravitated to groups like Pharcyde and Hiero and the Liks and the 1st thing i heard from e40 fans was you like East Coast rap you aint from oakland. But i had E40, Short, Luniz tapes too who i see to this day as some of the best lyricists ever. It was like u had to choose. when i would spit Everyone would say u can rap but you got that east coast flow. I was seen almost like a trader. niggaz would say move to NY, or yo raps make no sense, you be usin them metaphors. I didnt all the way get it. I jus liked the sound. Maybe i was denying my roots or maybe the west was being generalized. i didnt have a Jeri curl (Lauryn), gang bang , or smoke weed at the time. i rocked oversized head phones, wore 1 pants leg up, and freestyled, tagged, and played hoop w non hangin dreds and there were many like me. To this day i realize i wasnt the norm but i also wasnt alone. this is all part of my growth as an artist

    at some point The “box” became the medium you could see east coast, south booty, west underground, local oakland indy music… it actually almost turned the tide cuz for once you could rep your coast and not be forced to hear East coast only. Of course 2pac played a big role in this he was uniting the West Coast and he was warring w the East w much success along w Westsyde connection. But he was from Brooklyn he had Meth and Red on the album. Death Row was killin it. Hmmmmm how did this happen? I almost missed the East coast sound. The Bay was full of home pride Mob Music compilations , Hiero was doin songs w Tribe. and the east was kinda quiet outside of the native tounges /nas/wu movement which wasnt as big out west. The west was sellin records. the boom bap sound of NY started bein known as Underground rap and u had to listen to the wake up show to hear that here.

    When i 1st saw Biggie’s video Juicy (long b4 i knew who puff was) i jus knew for sure he was from the West Coast the flow the sample, the laid backness of the song. Who knew he’d become the king of NY one day. i remember when Jay Z dropped Aint no Nigga in oakland we were like this nigga stole Dru down beat at the time Dru D
    own was a signed artist nationwide id say bigger than JayZ – my boy came bumpin reasonable doubt shit in his firebird i wasnt interested then i heard the slaps and was like okay. I noticed that biggie, jigga, and the east coast sound was appreciating what we like and our style (Biggie said on Ready to die he was tryna figure out how to sell record like Snoop). the music was becoming less abstract more in your face. at some point w groups like outkast who were once accused of biting hiero, and short… and groups like UGK- lines were getting blurred. more big budgets came into play- rappers were doin songs accross lines more and more, big budget remixes. The mixing was at a all time high. Pun ,DMX, The Lox, Camron were all giving the West props and kickin in your face gangster shit.

    the east coast bias was losing its steam. more and more short was on jayz and biggies albums- bone was out (everyone had a bone flow song for a minute lol) , shit was everywhere.To say u listen to east coast style rap was becoming hard to define. In these days that term doesnt even stick w artist like Jim Jones and Murs and Jay Electronica and even w me DLabrie- im loved in NY for my True lyricism and also for my Hyphy ties. My Homies from the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens they go dumb w me when they hear my single Pity Patt – http://bit.ly/YW0nC comes on and even ask me to spit that shit and show them the town flavor. Sometimes i have to remind them i grew up on NY rap and one of my fav groups ever was Wu Tang and , Def Squad, Boot Camp Click. My point is this is hip hop……. west borrowed from east, south borrowed from west, midwest soaked game from all over, east borrowed from jamiaca, disco, cowboys, r and b- we have covered the gamut, now international is borrowin from america. Its a cycle. we have to let the old terms go. its been a journey for me to find my voice as an emcee . I can rock on a cut w Mos Def or Luke or the hood homie Keak da Sneak or a nigga who dont speak english. Im still hip hop. Backpackers/Conscious rappers are fed up w the stigma, political rappers are sick of being held to an unreal standards, ganster rappers are pourin they heart out. No one wants to be put in a box anymore. All bets are fuckin off now. I hear rappers sayin when will the real rap come back or bring back the real hip hop? Jus do you……..Lets evolve and stop this bullshit. If you old school do you, if you w the new shit do you. I rep the Bay hard as fuck all day to the point i still get mad at bay cats dissin hyphy or the bay in general but to each they own I don’t take it personal. I don’t decide no 1’s opinion on hip hop and how they feel and vice versa. i dont wanna hit the road an be seen as the jus the “hyphy” dude either just cuz im from oakland cuz then u think im one deminsional. i rep the west Seattle, Oregon, Vegas, Cali, Im still pissed XXL did a whole article on hip hop and r and b and didnt mention the west coast AT ALL and acted as if the 1st time was meth and mary or rakim and jody watley (with all due respect). Same time alot of my favs new and old are in NY and the East Coast in general and i always get my game face on and get a lil kid like when i touch down in the mecca i always bring my best for them. Overall theres still an east coast bias in alot of the dinasours , publications, shows, i dont see it as much in the new generation though and that caused a rebellion that lead to cats formin they own media, websites and outlets to counter that. Its like lets rep our own not to diss nowhere else but if the mainstream aint gonna do it like NWA, Cash Money, Thizz, or G.O.O.D you have to put on for your city. Its like affirmative action give a fair chance to everyone. Some of yall right its not comin from the artists and not always the fans. you cant like what u dont know about. some cats i met in NY thought the bay was just e40 and too short cuz thats all they hear in the mainstream but many rappers get shine on the internet from other places now. lets allow for a bigger mind state then jus Biggie, Jay Z and Nas- and grimey street raps with beat breaks, break dancing and graphitti. Even in NY thats not all thats crackin anymore. that will always be the foundation – but let rappers sing, do auto tune, dance, have fun, krump, snap, go dumb, earl flynn, say tech 9 is the best, TI or Wayne, Mistah Fab or Mac Dre, let a nigga make a song for the harmony and not for lyrics – after i say all this shit im still gonna throw on my Illmatic tape listen to it a week straight on repeat and say its better than almost every album ever made and hold myself to that standard. ALL EYES ON ME is my shit too Much respect to all regions, we all have something to offer. It’s hip hop better yet its music…………

  9. Thanks for the Ice T knowledge Davey, that’s the stuff I come here for. How does one become a zulu king? Has he had his zulu pass revoked due to his playing a cop so convincingly?
    I come from the late 80’s punk scene so I never was looking to radio for anything and I’m still not. So I guess I was oblivious to who they were or were not showing love to. But it makes sense that the established radio people were leery of changing from what got them where they were. That’s natural. It’s also natural that new artists and styles have to struggle for acceptance.

    There’s a whole generation of rock music from the late 80’s early 90’s that never got radio play because the classic rock format was the only show in town. Just like there’s a whole generation of hip hop talent getting ignored by the KISS/HOT formats today.

    The question people need to ask themselves is why that acceptance from the mainstream is important to them. radio will go the route of newspapers soon and even sooner if we would just stop giving them the authority to make our tastes.

  10. Yep! b lo Tim is exactly right. Davey is a good example of the future of Hip Hop on radio. I met Davey when I was a student in the Cal Berkeley Extension studying Media in the early 80’s. Davey was the head of the Third World Department at when we interned at KALX 80.7. He brought the heat even then, but I was playing mostly Reggae and if you think it is hard to get radio juice now,you should have witnessed how hard it was to get Reggae spins, even on a college station. The shit was segregated really, with reggae having about four hours a week over, like two different days. But the Third World Department was where the concerns of all “other” music was addressed and Davey’s advocacy for not just hip hop but all ghetto-ized music was admirable. He made a lot of friends and fans and this is what made him popular-his advocacy.

    Later when he went to KMEL he took his whole crew. This was when and also kind of how my music began to fuse and my love for hip hop began to grow. My dj Jah Bonz was apart of Davey’s crew and I started directing Bonz’s productions and adding music to the dub plates Bonz had for me to chant on. The reggae music I was playing and the Hip Hop samples and drum and bass motifs we were adding made it so we were actually creating a hybrid Hip Hop/Reggae sound, but what drove our sound was that we wanted to get on mainstream radio.

    Then the unforeseen happened. Politics and bullshit caused the plug to be pulled and the whole KMEL thing, our access to big radio etc came to a halt. Suddenly I was caught in the middle and I guess my sound must have seemed schizophrenic to most. Not reggae not “rap”, and our advocacy in the form of Davey D was taken away from us. We were in a genre graveyard.

    So the lesson is, if you tailoring your sound to either radio or record companies there is going to come a time when radio and record companies aint gonna be here. What I learned is that, though it was true that my shit “wasn’t reggae and wasn’t rap” the shit was HIP HOP, and that means you gotta take that shit directly to the people to get love from the audience or you’re likely to get gaffled.

  11. Ryan J. Barber says:

    Wasn’t Joe Budden’s beef with Inspectah Deck? Because Deck to offense at Budden saying he was a better rapper than Method Man?

    I’ve got to agree with whoever it was that said that the Wu shouldn’t even bother responding to this clown. People can say whatever they want, I’m not here to fight about opinions but the lyrics that consistently pop into my head are 50% Wu-Tang. When I realized that it made me understand how deep their impact is/was on me and the world.

    As for the whole East coast versus West coast debate it’s cool when it’s a debate/discussion. I spent a good hour debating two Cali kids in the back of our Methods of Communication Research class and it was easily the most productive, thoughtful and intellectual thing we did all semester.

    But when it turns to a fight again that to me is just sad. Any way thanks for the history lesson Davey D.

  12. e-scribblah says:

    the notion of coastal bias really came from the fact that NY was all about NY. i can remember when souls of mischief freestyled on stretch armstrong and got fools mad open…because they could actually freestyle.

    the irony of course was that other regions, especially the bay, really supported East Coast hip-hop, along with West coast artists. for example, Tim Dog’s crew Ultramagnetic MCs had mad love in the bay, so did Nas, gangstarr, Wu-Tange, redman, BDP, Organized Konfusion, etc. that love was never reciprocated by NYC.

    i also remember Afro-Rican opening for De La Soul in 1988 and blowing them off the stage. De La was pretty lame live when they first came out. they got better, though.

    the sad thing about it is that NY not only hated on hip-hop from other places, eventually they started hating on themselves. they killed their own culture.

    they stubbornly refused to accept Southern groups like Outkast and Goodie Mob who were both dope….many years later, NYC clubs started having “crunk nights” playing nothing but Down South music. how ironic is that?

    if NY ever got off its own dick, it might be able to recapture the rawness it once had, but unfortunately all we’re left with is mediocre East Coast rappers shitting on each other.

  13. e-scrib you are missing a very big point here and it’s one most people miss when this regionalism debate comes up. NYC was never one region it was 5 boroughs competing at times battling but always maintaining their own sht. so when other cities came into it they treated them no differently. the Bronx treated down south rappers the same way they treated brooklyn rappers when they came out which was the same way they were treated if they went uptown. the idea that there was ever a unified NYC opinion about anything let alone what they thought about your town is a myth. I saw the alcoholics in manhattan (in 1994 maybe?) and the opener was Evil D and the BCC. There was nothing but love from the crowd and the BCC for the liks.

    like Davey said above the radio stations were a different story but I could care less about it. they were a business and it’s natural for a successful business to stick with what works until it doesn’t. I don’t consider that bias. they refuse to play new stuff until it’s a guarenteed winner, that’s why they shouldn’t be our taste makers.

  14. But Tim, the mythology behind NY as the Mecca for hip hop is what drove Hip Hop and what also what made the West Coast become the “Medina” of Hip Hop.

    When you talk about the five boroughs competing, it was just that: Healthy competition. But what we saw in the reaction of NY hip hop to hip hop from other places in Amerikkka was COVETING, and whenever that type of spirit gets into anything it is destructive and divisive.

    Also, the era of revolutionary rap was inspired by what we do in the west, that is to say, Panther shit, as exemplified and personified in Tupac. That bling shit from Puffy and Biggie and them was a controlling reaction by NY because the west was influencing not just the music but the entire culture of hip hop, and infusing it with some progressive revolutionary shit. The corporations get into NY’s ear, NY gets it and appropriates it and the counter reaction was the gangsta shit. A mitigating aspect of this was the Wu movement.

    See how coveting mutated a perfectly viable tool for change into something that ends up being controlled by the same principalities that needed changing?

  15. HEALTHY competition? Tell that to Scot La Rock.

    I think Tupac’s revolutionary philosophies were not nearly as present in his music as people now assert. Had you said Paris or the coup it would have been a better choice. But I do agree the west coast upped the ante on real violence amongst members of this culture. There’s an old saying I believe came from Ras Kas or killah priest, went something like “gangsters in the west wanna be rappers / rappers in the east wanna be gangsters”.

    When it comes to “keeping it real” real violent, the west wins 9 out of 10 times. As a fan of music that doesn’t impress me. I don’t need al pacino to really shoot someone and do piles of coke to enjoy Scarface.

    I think your theory about countering movements is true but not the way you say and not a conscious decision by the artists. It was more a decision by the gatekeepers of national media and labels. The ones who decide what get’s attention and what doesn’t. If George Bush the first doesn’t sick the cia on NWA after F the police then they don’t reach the level of notoriety they reach. Remember when NWA smashed thru? What was the reigning hip hop movement? It was the stop the violence movement of KRS 1 and the afrocentric native tongue crew. Now those in power couldn’t have a movement unifying people and preaching upliftment and knowledge. So they see these cats in Compton talking about killing not just cops but their own and who did the “industry” marketing get behind? Who became corny? Who was mocked as “captain conscious”?

    I’m not in front of a computer again until next week Tuesday but I am enjoying this thread.

  16. e-scribblah says:

    “e-scrib you are missing a very big point here and it’s one most people miss when this regionalism debate comes up. NYC was never one region it was 5 boroughs competing at times battling but always maintaining their own sht. so when other cities came into it they treated them no differently. the Bronx treated down south rappers the same way they treated brooklyn rappers when they came out which was the same way they were treated if they went uptown.”

    this is a good point and i’m glad you raised it. go back to your second line, however–“NYC was never one region”.

    that’s precisely the problem. the whole notion of NYC as the center of hip-hop was always mythical because in actuality, there wasnt unity for the reasons you mentioned so maintaining hegemony, to borrow a term from political science, wasnt possible. i remember when KRS came with South Bronx and smashed on Marley and Queensbridge. at the time i thought the record was dope, and i dug the history lesson Kris kicked. but that song underscores a point that there was always inter-regional (inter-borough?) beef in the alleged Mecca of hip-hop, as Ali Baba mentioned.

    the real Mecca is a place where Muslims from everywhere come to study and be at peace with others who have the same religious beliefs. If Saudi Arabians are hating on folks from Qatar, Yemen, and Sudan, then that peace is shattered.

    to stretch this analogy to hip-hop, NYC should have been a place where hip-hop from everywhere was accepted. instead it was a place where Brooklyn hated on Manhattan who hated on Long Island who hated on the Bronx, who hated on Queens, etc. instead the lack of hegemony made it vulnerable to the divide and conquer strategy outside influences (i.e. the media and music industry) promoted after infiltrating the culture. it’s colonialism and neo-colonialism all over again.

    the west, being outside of much of this control, was rawer, more revolutionary, more independent. Paris and the Coup are perfect examples of this. So is Digital Underground and hiero. so is freestyle fellowship. and the pharcyde.

    dont get me wrong, i love me some PRT. and i was all about Chill Rob G back in the day. and Liquid Swords was my shit.

    however, when it came to rappers being identified with what was happeneing in the streets, no one could deny E-40 and the Luniz had raw game for days. but most of them started rapping to get away from violence.

    i have to respectfully disagree about the west being more “violent” than the east. i dont think that’s a competition anyone wins. however, i will point out that the co-option of NYC hip-hop–as noted by Wise Intelligent back in 1996 with the song “They Turned Gangster”–changed the game. When the East Coast tried to be as gangster as Death Row and them, that’s when they lost. once they started down that path,t here was no turning back. even after Biggie’s death, no one learned their lesson.

    then the game changed again with 50 Cent, who’s claim to corporate fame is his street cred–being shot 9 times. so that becomes the new badge of (dis)honor among east coast rappers. in addition to Vibe and Source, you also have to look at the role Hot 97 specifically played in promoting beef.

    the bottom line to me is that ultimately, the East Coast bias against other regions (both internally and externally) became somewhat of a myopic stigma which resulted in blindness, instead of clear vision. and that’s where we are today.

  17. You confuse surface without knowing what lays below the surface such as city untiy, yes nyc is comprised of 5 regoins that makes up what is better known as nyc, but what you loose in ur so-called lesson is that any type of bourough rivary is secondary when it comes to nyc representing nyc, that is a fact, I’m from nyc, and when it comes down to representing nyc, it ain’t about well he from bk he from boogie down, it was about in the end the region of nyc nj being represented, that includes when delasoul and naughty by nature were making hits, people from nyc weren’t saying those uppety negroes from strong island takin over or those peeps from jc tryin to infuse themselfs into the so-called game. Radio is at the forefront of this and has been the defacto standard of bs along with the labels and so-called rap impersonarios fronting itself off as commercial hip hop music in the first place, it’s only now we have negro intellects who play the faux news channel talking points game as a way of so-called stimulating intellectual debate, that does nothing more than keep people talking and not taking action, we also have those who take this as the gospel and that will only continue the dumb down of future generations along with the trick 97 formats that have become the gatekeepers of our young for alittle more than half a biblical generation.

  18. Brilliant thread. When I think about the fact that most of the progenitors of the “rap game” were teenagers when the game begin, and are now middle 30’s to early 40’s, it really sheds light on the conundrum the hip hop movement is faced with. When is hip hop gonna allow itself to grow up? There’s the age old adage that one should never send a boy to do a man’s job. But that’s one sure way of making men out of little boys. The history of hip hop reminds me of the story of the old bull and the young bull sitting on a hill, looking down on a pasture of young heifers.

    Children at the age of most of the earlier rappers that made a lot of money were also at the age that one tends to be most malleable. Why is the age of conscription in the military about the same age that record deals are usually offered?
    It all comes back to what I wrote about in 1990 in an article I published titled “The Corporate Control of Hip Hop Culture”.
    This goes right to the issue of beef in the industry as the e-scribbla said when he stated “the lack of hegemony made it (hip hop) vulnerable to the divide and conquer strategy;” and then “When it came to rappers being identified with what was happeneing in the streets, no one could deny E-40 and the Luniz had raw game for days. but most of them started rapping to get away from violence.” When a boy sees a fight he runs toward it. When a man sees a fight he tends to go the other direction. The older one gets the more important longevity becomes.

    E-Scribe then goes ahead and drives it home when he says
    “Outside influences (i.e. the media and music industry) promoted (beef) after infiltrating the culture. It’s colonialism and neo-colonialism all over again.”

    But you see, when I talked about “healthy competition” among the five Burroughs in terms of hip hop, I was probably romanticizing. I wanted to believe in the mythological NY as the Mecca for hip hop in the same way that Motown was for R & B. I wanted to think of hip hop as the new age bee bop, and the existence of Death Row, Bad Boy and Rap-A-Lot in the same way I used to think of Motown, Stax, Chess or Atlantic Records back in the day.

    These entities competed, like any business would compete, for market share, but did the Temptations ever get into a gun fight with the Ojays?

    So once again, children don’t always know what’s best for themselves and maybe a 21 year old should not be allowed to cut multi million dollar deals with multi national monolithic media conglomerates. Not to get all PMRC with this shit but maybe legislation of prudence in hip hop may be needed to some degree (probably not the most popular of proposals).

    Of course, some might construe this as a pitch or a self serving sentiment since I am an OG B-Boy, but what was needed early on and sorely needed now are more OG’s in hip hop, which may be a foregone conclusion since most relevant art comes from those who have been at it the longest and not out of the mouths of babes. So how about a summit of hip hop OG’s to take up the question of where we go from here in hip hop, kind of like a “Million OG Rappers March?”

  19. MAN WHEN TIM DOG CAME OUT, HE SET IT OUT. NWA HAD EAST COAST RAPPERS SCURREDDANAMUTHAFUCKA. EAST WASN’T SAYIN NOTHIN BACK TO COMPTON. KRS-ONE WAS ON THAT TRACK WITH TIM DOG, AND FOR THE FIRST TIME, “DISS MASTA” KRS-1 AINT SAY NOTHIN BOUT THE WEST SIDE.

    I’M A EAST COAST DUDE WHO ALWAYS RESPECTED THE WEST. TUPAC WAS THE REALEST EVER! SUGE KNIGHT HAD SUCKAS RUNNIN AND BLEEDIN.

    I’M NOT SAYING I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THAT SUGE OR ANYBODY ELSE DID.

    BUT DON’T GET ON A RECORD SAYIN HOW YOU A KILL AND HOW IF ANY BODY STEP TO YOU AND YAH DAH YAH DAH, AND THEN GET A POLICE RESTRAINING ORDER WHEN THEY DO STEP TO YOU.

    BUT REAL EAST COAST DUDES NEVA HAD A PROBLEM WITH THE WEST SIDE. THEY ARE OUR BROTHERS. EVEN TUPAC MADE THAT CLEAR WHEN HE DISSED BIG “HIT EM UP”.

  20. e-scribblah says:

    “These entities competed, like any business would compete, for market share, but did the Temptations ever get into a gun fight with the Ojays?”

    LOL. that’s a good one. of course, the rise in gun violence may be a reflection of worsening conditions overall for the inner-city which gets reflected in the music. and i could also point out that beef in Jamaican dancehall has frequently resulted in shootouts as well.

    “I wanted to believe in the mythological NY as the Mecca for hip hop in the same way that Motown was for R & B. I wanted to think of hip hop as the new age bee bop, and the existence of Death Row, Bad Boy and Rap-A-Lot in the same way I used to think of Motown, Stax, Chess or Atlantic Records back in the day.”

    another great point. that’s the problem with mythologizing/romanticizing something–reality sometimes gets in the way.

    “what you loose in ur so-called lesson is that any type of bourough rivary is secondary when it comes to nyc representing nyc, that is a fact, I’m from nyc, and when it comes down to representing nyc, it ain’t about well he from bk he from boogie down, it was about in the end the region of nyc nj being represented, that includes when delasoul and naughty by nature were making hits, people from nyc weren’t saying those uppety negroes from strong island takin over or those peeps from jc tryin to infuse themselfs into the so-called game.”

    had to address this one too. will, i think you make some contradictory points here, given the facts as we know them. i dont think artists from trenton or long island were any less accepted in other cities/regions then they were in new york. and most of those crews from the suburbs or brick city whom we know about had strong NYC connections. this would indicate a greater level of hegemony among east coasts artists was possible to attain than what actually happened, with the only real unity coming during an XXL photo shoot in harlem or a media-fanned “war” on death row and the west in general. as we all know some of the cats in hip-hop are/were fiercely territorial. when biggie says, “that brooklyn bullshit, we on it,” just what do you think he’s referring to? his love and admiration for other boroughs? but when Pac talked about “california love,”he brought in not just LA and the Bay but Sacramento and other regions. so the point is that if NYC only has unity when its “representing” itself (i.e. hating on other regions) , is that really unity? as soon as the east/west beef was over, cats went back to hating on other NYC rappers. just for kicks, ask cats in connecticut or philly if they were really accepted by NYC… i think that will give you a clearer picture of the limitations of East coast love and the realities of territorial politics in hip-hop.

  21. e-scribblah says:

    “Radio is at the forefront of this and has been the defacto standard of bs along with the labels and so-called rap impersonarios fronting itself off as commercial hip hop music in the first place”

    it’s important to remember, will, that this wasnt always the case. you have to go back to the pre-Hot 97 era…

    Red Alert, Chuck Chillout and Marley Marl were hip-hop’s gatekeepers in the East. They were part of the culture themselves, that’s the difference. Later on, Stretch and Bobbito held it down for indie cats, they played Wu-Tang and Biggie before anyone else heard of them. When corporate radio took over, the music became more commercialized. as culture had less impact, violence and beef took over.

    In the west radio pioneers like Julio G, Greg Mack, Sway and tech, Marcus Clemmons, Beni B and Davey D also played a similar gatekeeper role. these brothers had a lot to do with shaping individual tastes, and making sure indie records got heard. Another thing to keep in mind is that up until about 94-95, you could sell 100k-200k on a major and no one considered you a commercial failure. is it any wonder that some of the greatest hip-hop records ever were made in the early 90s?

    but around 96, the bar was raised for commercial sales–once the Fugees sell 8 million, then all of a sudden, major labels dont want to support that artist with a 200k fan base, they want you to sell at least a couple mil. if you werent moving at least 500k on a major, you probably got dropped. that year the Telecomm Act of ’96 passed, which changed radio as we knew it, paving the way for consolidation. the labels followed suit. no more innovative indie acts like de la; instead we had East Coast 2Pac clones like DMX and Ja Rule and rappers with obvious crossover appeal like Eminem. Just ask anyone who was on Jive at the time, from E-40 to Tribe to KRS-One, how much that label was really behind its rap artists once Britney, Backstreet Boys, and N’Sync began hitting the charts. this path led straight to mainstream, ultra-commercial rap like Jay-Z, P-Diddy, 50 Cent and the rapeover of hip-hop, as Mos Def would say.

    getting back to the original point, did radio stations, magazines, and major labels have a vested interest in promoting beef? hells yeah. but artists continued to act like pawns on a chessboard and play right into it.

    hope u got THAT lesson.

  22. Ok E-Scrbbler, you opened the door so I’ve gotta take what you said and embellish it, chips fall where they may. Now I remember how I felt the first time I ever heard one of my joints played on radio or walked into Amoeba records an saw my shit on the shelf. There was no way in the world that at that point, in my mind, I hadn’t “made it.”

    But what happened to the rest of the spins I thought I was gonna get? True enough that the Telecomm Act of ‘96 and other deregulatory moves helped to seal the fate of a lot of aspiring artists and that this began the start of the Corporate Control of Hip Hop. Now I had to get on Scantron and I needed a UPC sticker on my shit, which was a lot harder to get than a Parental Advisory tag. But it gets deeper than that and this underscores the East-West conflagration.

    As you know, for every spin on the radio, the artist and the label gets paid. So East Coast radio DJs were making sure that East Coast artists were the only ones getting paid on the East Coast radio stations. On the West Coast, we went the independent route, and so we only needed to sell 100,000-200,000 to go Ghetto Gold because we owned the product from concept to cop. Since radio was now corporate and monolithic, West Coast independents would not get radio play because there was no incentive to make an artist that wasn’t making money for the industry.

    Since payola was outlawed, in order to get that broad exposure from radio, you had to play the game of “who you know” and now your work became a thing that was not even how good the shit was, but whether or not some mutha fucka you aint even know “liked you” or not.. An artist is always striving to get a greater audience and so there was still a desire to be heard by a nationwide audience and get national love. So now another tier was created whereby the radio DJ was “the man” de facto.

    So if Tamu or Davey D would have Ali Baba on the Wake Up Show one night and they spinned his shit one time at about 1:30 in the morning, it’s cool for Baba’s ego but it didn’t help the record get heard by unduplicated listener contacts. If you were not in the click or if you didn’t have the particular style these coolies were looking for, you were not going to get evening drive spins. There was also a racial/racist aspect to all of this (No offense to Chuy Varela) and that meant that no matter how good the shit was, if you weren’t a part of the popular click you didn’t get no action. This kind of fueled a West version of the Borough beef we have been talking about on this string, which almost certainly fueled the deaths of a number of important West Coast artist including Seagram and Mac Dre, and included the dissing of Short by the Luniz and shit like that.

    Furthermore, this kind of scenario was what created so-called “radio personalities”. These are people that don’t really do any music, they are just famous for playing other people’s shit, becoming enriched for living vicariously through other people who really do the shit. Of course many of these types have the redeeming quality of having a nice bunch of knowledge about the music and the history thereof, but I could never understand why these people have the power in the game they have for being what amounts to “professional fans”.

    If you have ever seen some of these people you know what I mean. They have their clicks and their entourages and they get to sit in VIP and the velvet rope gets opened for them while some brilliantly talented kid who is hollering from behind the gate “Please play my demo” is getting dissed and laughed at by them.

    So don’t forget that other player who had a vested interest in promoting beef and separation: The DJs and “Radio Personalities” who may not have been exactly pawns on the industry chessboard, but were certainly Rooks and Bishops for the industry.

  23. e-scribblah says:

    “The DJs and “Radio Personalities” who may not have been exactly pawns on the industry chessboard, but were certainly Rooks and Bishops for the industry.”

    ok but you need rooks, bishops and knights to mount a successful attack, right?

    i see where you’re going with this, but you’re looking at it very personal. this may be clouding your judgment.

    for instance, you take a shot at Chuey Varela who is a jazz DJ–maybe you meant Chuey Gomez, but still…

    i wouldnt say a DJ or air personality is just a “professional fan.” that’s a gross oversimplification at best. in my earlier comment, i characterized people like Red Alert and Sway as gatekeepers of a culture… without Red, there’s no BDP, Jungle Brothers, De La or Tribe… you can go back to the 40s and 50s when black radio was an important lifeline and people like Symphony Sid were on the scene.

    look at the role the DJ (Prince Buster) plays in the movie the Harder They Come…he gives Ivan spins, even though the label owner wants to hold him back… “sit tight and listen keenly while i play for you a brand new musical biscuit”

    when hip-hop started, it was an underground subculture. so people like Herc, Flash and Bambaataa were seminal in spreading that culture…later on, Mr Magic et al, who were on the radio, occupied that gatekeeper role. tapes of those radio shows circulated around the world…

    now i’m not saying there werent always politics associated with radio. what i’m saying is the rise of corporate hip-hop took the DJ out of their role as gatekeepers.

    when Julio G cant break a new artist because he no longer has control of the airwaves, you have a fucked-up situation. When Wendy Williams or Miss Jones hypes up beef just to get ratings, you have a fucked-up situation. When Davey D gets fired by Clear Channel for interviewing Barbara Lee and Boots Riley, you have a fucked-up situation.

    “This kind of fueled a West version of the Borough beef we have been talking about on this string, which almost certainly fueled the deaths of a number of important West Coast artist including Seagram and Mac Dre, and included the dissing of Short by the Luniz and shit like that.”

    you’re way off course here. first of all, Seagram’s death wasnt linked to hip-hop at all. that was on some street shit… second, the facts surrounding Dre’s death are still a bit murky, though a Kansas City rap artist was implicated, we still dont know for sure he did it…

    what’s interesting about the whole Short/Luniz situation–which thankfully was just a fistfight and didnt involve guns– was that after the fact, KMEL tried to ban $hort from the airwaves and he responded on wax…KMEL had to rescind the ban because they looked bad. This was before the CC takeover. After the takeover, the station didnt give a fuck about the community.

    years later, beef between the station’s MD and certain artists led to industry blackballing which basically derailed the whole hyphy movement (which really only got on the radio in the first place because of rivalry between KMEL and now-defunct Power 92–so beef isnt always bad). some people wanted to respond the “street way” but those artists stopped that shit out of respect for the gatekeepers, even though those gatekeepers were no longer accountable.

    still, it’s hard to see what that particular radio station employee gained from hating on those artists…its true his station had a vested interest in not promoting indie artists, but by not getting behind localism in every market, corporate radio stopped being as relevant as it once was. now CC and other companies are facing likely bankruptcy and may not ever be able to entice turned-off former listeners to return.

    “Since payola was outlawed…”

    LOL. all this did was squeeze indie promoters out of the loop.

    “As you know, for every spin on the radio, the artist and the label gets paid. So East Coast radio DJs were making sure that East Coast artists were the only ones getting paid on the East Coast radio stations. On the West Coast, we went the independent route, and so we only needed to sell 100,000-200,000 to go Ghetto Gold because we owned the product from concept to cop. Since radio was now corporate and monolithic, West Coast independents would not get radio play because there was no incentive to make an artist that wasn’t making money for the industry.”

    actually it’s more insidious than this.commercial radio will still play local artists to draw listeners, but only on mix shows, and only a 90 second snippet. because they’re not playing the full song, it doesnt show up on the playlist and doesnt register as a spin by BDS. what is on the playlist is major-label artists whose slots are bought and paid for. if indie artists want to get airplay, they have to break the DJs off under the table, either via a mixtape with one of the DJs, unpaid “promotional” appearances, or by hiring a company the DJ is in bed with to do street promo. but even this doesnt guarantee airplay anymore, since DJs have little leeway in determining rotation artists. i’ve actually heard of situations where DJs–sorry, cant name any names–have
    had to give money back because they promised spins which never materialized.

  24. e-scribblah says:

    one more example i should mention of radio stations playing a gatekeeper role was in the Hiero/Hobo Junction beef. there was a disagreement between camps, but instead of it turning ugly, they were invited onto the Wake Up show to settle it the old-fashioned way: with a rhyme battle. i cant see this even happening today.

  25. Peace fam, as a Brooklynite who grew up on both coast, I will say that the New York did show love to some West Coast artist but it depended on what they where pushing. I have a tape( yes a tape! one of many) of Marley and Red Alert shows and sone of them were playing ICE-T, Easy E’s/NWA songs and other West Coast artist. I remember watching Video Music Box w/ uncle Ralph playing Hiero, NWA, Too Short, E-40, CMW, SCC, Ras Kass, Cypress, Snoop, Dogg Pound, Yo-Yo, Cube, WC, Mack 10, Warren G, Boo Yaa Tribe, Dj Quik, etc.. from 89-95(when I left NY). There were call in video shows on UFH channels that rocked Hiero hard, and underground radio shows that gave love to any artist with rhyme skills from many regions. When Tim Dog made F-Compton, he was going in at how the industry was riding the tip of Compton and wanted artist to sound like NWA, Quik, CMW, etc to make money off the artist. What got played in New York was songs with lyrics they could relate to, at that time 88-95 we did not have Bloods and Crips walking thru New York like that, it was Decept, Lo-Lifes, and many posses from different projects or blocks so we could not relate to the gangster lifestyle the west brought but it did open everyone’s eyes to what was going on. So when West Coast artist started claiming they didn’t get air play in NY, I knew he was lying because songs off Amerikkkas most get love and mad air play on college stations, and popular stations like Kiss and WBLS played Cube( not all songs but some), Yo-Yo, Ras Kass, Warren G, Snoop, etc on the Friday and Saturday night mixshows. College radio played Ras Kass, Freestyle Fellowship, The Pharcyde, Paris, Hiero, Kam, etc.. So for these not in the know I was there and have prove on tape the West got love from the East as far back as 88. Some songs may not have been the most lyrical or dropped mad knowledge but it was played on the East Coast and not just New York.

  26. correction: I knew they were….

  27. Robert Jr. James McClendon says:

    East Coast/West Coast non-sense ended with the death of Biggie Smalls. California just didn’t get it. And still perhaps dont. Rap was “not” about increasing gang activity nor the prison tatoo population throughout the rest of the U.S. states like in California. Bam started Hip-hop to stop that “non-sense” back in ’76. California just never got what mainstream (Hollywood folk) was doing to our music and young people. Let me take you all back fifteen years to somethingtoday’s “media owners” would never let you google –

    “It Is High Time To Take A Stand Against Gangsta Rap.” September 27, 1994 Philadelphia Tribune by Robert Jr. James McClendon

    I returned home to Mt. Airy, Philadelphia, after spending nine years in Del Rio, Texas. I spent six years at Laughlin AFB and worked two years afterwards. Before returning to Philadelphia I spent a year attending school and struggling as a writer.

    Immediately, upon my arrival, I noticed things had changed. The streeets had a few pot holes, the trees had grown more, and there were a lot of new faces and abandoned homes in the neighborhood. “This is Mt. Airy”, I said to myself as I drove through the town to my mother’s house. “What happened to the neighborhood?” Then I thought about North Philly. I compared mentally, what “North” looked like when I was five, back in 1969, and how Mt. Airy looks now. It shook me for a second, y’all.

    However, I am not going to discuss that right now. What I do want to talk about is this “Gangsta-Reality Rap Crap.”

    As a student of rap music since 1979, I’ve seen the craft change and change, but this latest change is for the worse. For the past seven years I’ve witnessed rappers “who can’t rap” make a lot of money. In addition, the adults of my generation – who didn’t understand rap music in the early ’80’s – have become parents and avid fans of today’s rap music. That’s an enigma, an irony of sorts, to me.

    Wait a minute! You didn’t like “Grand Master Flash”, “The Crash Crew”, nor “Spoonie G!” Now, 15 years later, you like the music? Back in the day, rap music was for kids. Today, “you’re” sportin’ Snoop Doggy Dodd t-shirts, tuning in to MTV, and blasting the music of Dr. Dre, Boss, and Ice Cube. What’s up with that – Moms and Dads? I’ve even seen some “gramps” down with music. “What’s Up?” Now all of a sudden you all want to be down-by-law with rap music, since MTV said its okay, nowadays. I get it.

    But I’ll tell you what’s really up, the “parents” like the “Gangsta Rap.” The kids, in my opinion, could care less. My generation, those between the ages of 25 and 35, are the motionless, “causeless generation” – who continue to .demonstrate “hopelessness”, and we dare to blame the youth because of “our” innate ability to condone ignorance. “its not us, its the kids” my generation of adults keep telling me.

    Adults, its not the kids, “you” are the one’s defending “Gangsta Rap”, saying, “the music ain’t hurting nobody. Its a freedom of speech, and so forth.”

    If you would have known real rap music, you would know that the rappers used similies and metaphors to express their thoguths — never curse words. The rappers bragged and boasted about themselves — they never put other African Americans down to make themselves look bigger. But adults, you wouldn’t know about that, because you people just jumped on the bandwagon in ’87.

    Brothers and sisters, you’re now the adults now. Martin Luther King and Jesse Jackson were our ages when they decided to take stands. I’m asking that we stand up like like adults and stop condoning this ignorance being recorded on rap records. Richard Pryor killed the word “nigger” in 1982. Many of you forgot about that. But let me remind you, he said the word is “dead”. Meaning – you do not use that word in the company of certain people.

    And I have to ask, what “God fearing” parent would allow his or her child to listen to or observe our people being denigrated on record the way we are? And don’t hand me that malarky about how you monitor your kids activities when it comes to rap music. certain rappers are generalizing about African Americans on these records and creating a denigrating stereotype of our youth — our kids.

    i keep hearing the adults saying – “The rappers are just telling what’s going on in the streets” – Adults, I think America does a good enough job with the news of reminding us how “ignorant” our people are. i don’t believe we really need jheri-curl wearing, domino playing, gang banging brothers trying to “hip” us and our fellow Americans to a thing. Adults, if that’s where you have to learn about about the “streets”, you are in worse shape than our kids. Now that I think about it, the setting of the movie “Boyz In The Hood” is kind of how my neighborhood in Mt. Airy, Philadelphia has started to look. Do you see any correlation?

    People born between ’59 and ’69, we are the adults now, the mister and misses, it’s time that we stand up for once in our lives. The last stand was 1968. This stuff is about to end anyway, we might as well try yo and “do right” at the end. So, therefore, I give you a “cause” – Gangsta Rap and Reality Rap is only negative propaganda being spread by our people to our youth. It is poisoning and indoctrinating millions, much like the movies “Super Fly” and “Colors” did. Perhaps you just don’t realize it, because this has been going on for the past seven years, and any God fearing” parent knows what the number seven represents. Thus, you have “Cause #1″. Take a stand my people, adults of “The City of Brotherly Love”. If you say its hopeless remember the kids are watching “you’.

    And after reading this, if you are an African American and you can honestly contemplate — “Who cares? or What does this have to do with the cost of tea in China?”, then “you” are the part of the problem. And perhaps “you” need to read my homegirl from Philly’s latest book — to check your stress. You people were looking for a spark, you now have one.

    It’s time that we start acting like adults and stop waiting for people like Jesse, Farrakhan, and C.Delores Tucker, because we are them now — the adults. You have the first “cause” to take a stand and it won”t be the last, just take one step. John 8:32.

    THIS ARTICLE WAS PUBLISHED IN 1994 IN THE PHILADELPHIA TRIBUNE. IT WENT NATIONAL AND WAS PUT UNDER “BLACK MEDIA WATCH”. THE PLACE THE JEWS PUT THOSE RADICAL NEGROES LIKE SPIKE LEE AND THEM. C. DELORES TUCKERS PHILADELPHIA POLITICAL CAUCUS OF BLACK WOMEN USED THIS ARTICLE AS WELL. “THEY THINK THAT I’M A NEW JACK, BUT ONLY IF THEY KNEW THAT..” BEEN TEACHINGTHESE KIDS GRANDPARENTS. I pretty much know what side of the track you all were on back in 1994, but damn it have you GROWN?!

  28. e-scribblah says:

    (yawn)

  29. Robert Jr. James McClendon says:

    stop glorifyingthe ignorance of the past and see the damage it has done to our black youth. if you don’t see it, its because your still blinded. class is always in session. got to be ready to learn

  30. Robert Jr. James McClendon says:

    Never in my life heard about this weak guy named “Tim Dogg”. He was “not” a premier rapper from the East Coast. I can name Kane, Kool G Rap, Nas, ect., where you all find that negro at? He ain’t represent “New York” rap. Sounds like someone’s giving credit where it ain’t due. Dude was whack trying to sound “west coast” if you ask me, and we weren’t “doggs” on the East Coast? Whack and a biter. LOL!!!

  31. Robert Jr. James McClendon says:

    1994 was the release of “The Origin of Rap Music” with Craig Mack “Flavor In Your Ear” and Biggie Smalls “Juicy” bringing Rap Music back to the East where the movies and media high-jacked the music from. As you all know – “To teach the East is what rap intended, but society wants to invade (colors, gangs,black tatoos, prsion), but do not walk this path that they laid, because its Self Destruction!”

  32. See Brother McClendon, when I hear people coming from that “Save the children from hip hop” vibe, I think about Eminem. Just by virtue of his existence and prominence in hip hop is the lie brought to rap being a damager of black youth. The extreme individual ala “Stan” is going to be sensitive to stimulation from Mozart. Shades of Tipper Gore and that handkerchief headed C. Delores Tucker. Naw bruh, I think you gotta just turn and walk away fromthat one.

  33. e-scribblah says:

    hehe…LMFAO at your weak-ass “points”

    “He ain’t represent “New York” rap.”

    it’s a little late to claim this now, isnt it?

    “Dude was whack trying to sound “west coast” if you ask me”

    no one asked you, but you should just stopped at, dude was whack.

    ” and we weren’t “doggs” on the East Coast?'”

    hmmm, so what do you think of that DMX guy? or PhifeDog from Tribe Called Quest? were they trying to be “west coast” too?

    “Craig Mack “Flavor In Your Ear” and Biggie Smalls “Juicy” bringing Rap Music back to the East where the movies and media high-jacked the music from.”

    i’m curious: what movies are you referring to? New Jack City? Juice? Both of them had pretty good soundtracks as i recall. “sip the juice/i got enough to go around/ and the thought takes place uptown.”… do you know the ledge, robert? you seem to be slippin…

    and, actually, Nas’ Illmatic was the best hip-hop/rap release of ’94 from the east coast. FYI, Biggie didnt even like ‘Juicy’–he felt it was too soft and commercial. and Craig Mack was dope as MC EZ with “Get Retarded” but is kind of the definition of a one-hit wonder. Puffy abandoned him because he wanted to be gangsta, and Biggie was Gangsta.

    also active at that time: Gangstarr, Organized Konfusion, Wu-Tang, Smif n Wessun, Tribe, De La, LONS. need i go on?

    damn, ‘mahatma’ (LOL), seems like you need to read up on your own history. you sound hella ignorant mane. why you trying to rep the East when you dont know jack squat about what was really really at that time, foo’?

    You quote D-Nice than add in your own unintended embellishments?

    FYI the whole notion of East comes from the 5 % Nation concept of the Asiatic black man (i.e. Rakim, Wise Intelligent, Lakim Shabazz, Daddy-O, Afu-Ra, RZA/GZA, etc.) it’s actually much deeper than just a reference to a coast. Egypt is in both Africa and Asia, so it refers back to Keemtic knowledge (the original scrolls the Masons falsely tried to claim).

    You coast-tripping, i’m dropping metaphysical jewels. that’s the difference between you and me. That and the fact i speak in logic, you speak in riddles/ you more played out than “Monie in the Middle”/ if you a rapologist, i must be a fiddle/, you’ve just been served so dont try and quibble/ you’ve been refuted by the undisputed/ scribe from the tribe/ whose flow is fluid/ knowledge is shining/word is bond/ you and that wackness need to get on!!!

  34. e-scribblah says:

    sorry, that should have been “Kemetic” knowledge just in case you wanna Google it or something… peace

  35. How I get caught up in this whack west coast conversation. It’s clear that this is a regional “west coast” post. Tim Dogg? Play “Flavor in your ear” with Craig Mack, Biggie, LL, Busta Phymes, Lion and them, where would that sucker emcee, gimmick artist Tim Dogg fit in? I didn’t think so, that’s a west coast thing. I’m like the sodomist… Its never been about saving children from hip-hop, its been about educating Black adults and their chhidren, where do you stand, Ali Babi from Oakland?

  36. Stop googling and acting like you know something, Bro. You are not original in any thing you post. Everything you post is straight off of google, es-scriblah. Damn, you weak. You like a page right out of David Toops book.

  37. Robert Jr. James McClendon says:

    I know Kane deserved a post, I just can’t figure how this guy got a post. Tim Dogg? And you all hit his post 40 something times from the “west coast” and ain’t give Kane a helllo?

  38. Brother McClendon
    Big Daddy Kane’s joint “Ain’t no half steppin” is the signature song of hip hop’s transformation from party music into truth music. That joint is the epitome of “The rap game is the crack game”. That shit rocked 24-7 out here in the West. Nobody I have asked ever even heard of Tim Dogg out here. But around the same time, early to mid 90’s we were loving Wu Tang. Even in when I lived in London they were banging Meth and Mary J’s “All I need”. So I find that the “beef” originally seemed to be coming FROM NY, and this seems to me to be the result of the loss of dominance to the West.

  39. e-scribblah says:

    “Stop googling and acting like you know something, Bro. You are not original in any thing you post. Everything you post is straight off of google, es-scriblah. Damn, you weak. You like a page right out of David Toops book.”

    i can tell you from the East Coast, brah. you know why? you automatically hate and in doing so reveal your ignorance.

    fyi, i’ve never read Toop’s book. didnt have to…i lived it. instead of trying to tell me i dont know what i’m talking about (as if), why don’t you show me that you know something–anything–or contribute to the discussion with something constructive?

    you wanna make an argument? ok. prove to me, or at least provide some supporting evidence, that my post was, as you said, “unoriginal.” if that was the case there must be some proof of that, right? otherwise we’ll just have to assume you’re speaking out your anus, with an IV of lime Haterade in your arm.

    you’re funny, you’re a perfect example of what i’m talking about. you’re like the Capital One advertisement guy, all you know how to say is “no.”

    ain’t it funny, i can drop science on West Coast and East Coast hip-hop and all you can do is hate? you call me “weak,” but i don’t see any strength coming from you, other than a strong degree of ignorance and confusion. your mind is cloudy…come to the light. cleanse your troubled soul, before it’s too late.

  40. FOTFLMAO! Beef sells records and keeps writers coming back to this thread! West Side!!!

  41. e-scribblah says:

    “So I find that the “beef” originally seemed to be coming FROM NY, and this seems to me to be the result of the loss of dominance to the West.”

    Real talk, ali b.

    the funny thing is, how many East Coasts artists got love from the West? i remmeber Supernatural freestyling from 42 minutes ont he Wake-Up show, broadcasting out of San francisco…that basically made his rep. And who started Rock the Bells? an East Coast promoter? nope, it was Guerilla Union, out of California. And when i spoke to Paris about the PE album he did recently, his comment to me was that he wondered why it took ten years for that to happen. let me leave you with a quote from Westside Connection: “I an’t a hater like you/bow down to a n—- that’s greater than you.”

  42. e-scribblah says:

    another salient point here is that when everyone else in NYC was hating on the south, Jay-Z had the foresight to record Big Pimpin with UGK. that was a real smart move…around that time (2000), the South had basically stopped playing East Coast artists. yes i was there, in southern clubs, witnessing with my own eyes. they werent playing any other Jay-Z track but Big Pimpin…

    contrast that to East Coast DJs taking E-40’s verse out of “Automatic” while West Coast/Southern jocks played the entire song, including Fabolous’ verse…

    another example was East Coast fools hating on the Federation and Rick Rock’s production style specifically, without knowing that Rock produced Busta, Jay-Z, Fabolous and Mariah Carey (in addition to Tupac and Keak Da Sneak).

    bottom line to me is that all this beef is basically bullshit. divide and conquer. bloods vs. crips instead of people vs. the man. you want an old-school parallel, look at the movie “the Warriors.” Sirus is about to unite all the NYC street gangs when he’s assassinated and the Warriors are blamed. so then we have internal gang conflict instead of the gangs taking on the system, like they had originally planned to do. ironically, it’s the Black Panther-esque Riffs who discover the truth and call off the hit order. you know where the Panthers were from, right?

    ok, now look at your politically-active NYC groups: PE and dead prez. wish there were more but that’s another story. both of them majorly influenced by the Panthers. maybe if y’all would put down the hate gun for a minute you’d be able to focus on the real enemy. hint: it’s not Ja Rule, Cam’ron or Tupac.

  43. Bravo E-Scrib! Folks in Europe see all hip hop as US, not east or west coast. This hate came from the east.

    Check out my joint “Robbing 50 Cents” http://www.myspace.com/thewonkanese.

    “Don’t play me cheap cuz I ain’t weak
    I hit you for your beats, and then i hit the street
    I’m representing the West you representing the East
    Punk mother fu**** you don’t want none of this beef

    Cuz we the real USDA, we coming from the bay to yay
    we gonna put it down all damn day
    We some mother fu***** fools, some Golf Links soldiers
    Come to rob your ass bitch, and you know that we want you

    If you wanna step to me, cuz Pac is dead
    much as you done snitched nigguh, and what you said
    mother fu**** you repeating the same shit
    we gonna take your shit and put it back cuz we some roll ass nigguhs!

    West Side!!

  44. Like I said, “This is a “west coast” thing. talking ’bout tooting one’s horn. Tim Dogg? West Side!? Let’s all grow up and get “real” jobs.

  45. Aww, lighten up RJJM. That was all in jest because we are pretty much at the end of this string,all things being said. But the truth is I am 50+ years old, damn grown, and writing IS my real job!

  46. Robert Jr. James McClendon says:

    Writing is apart of my “real” job, just ain’t supose to be on here during work hours. Free-lancing and author is my side job. Just saw something in an Entreprenuer Magazine with Russell Simmons on the cover. I skimmed through it. It made me think about a song on another post about advice to the young Black male, it was the song called “Be a Father To Your Child” by Ed O.G. and The Bulldogs. The magazine had all of these monetary accomplishments of Russell in “Hip-hop” and all I kept thinking about was the Ed O.G. song and how a brother from Africa had to come over here and take his wife to have a baby and raise her kids as his own. That’s Hip-hop. The jews applaud you for making yourself and them rich along the way, but the one basic thing any Black man is required to do “ye be lacking”. Be a father to your child, Russell, just ’cause you 50 plus and rich off of helping ignorant people – hurt our people (hip-hop) don’t make you a man, ask Kimona Simmons. All that money and another brother being a father to your child. I’m lightened up, now that’s some laughing shit! Got to hear the song. Laying some African pipe and you still stuck on hip-hop. That’s shits a joke. Trying to do argyle and he doing Kimona. LOL!

  47. Robert Jr. James McClendon says:

    Alright, es-scribblh, don’t agree with you, of course, but atleast that shits “original”.

  48. e-scribblah says:

    “Alright, es-scribblh, don’t agree with you, of course, but atleast that shits “original”.”

    cool, we can agree to disagree on some things. i’ll agree that Be a Father to Your Child” is a song more folks should go back and check out…

    i just want to make a final point about beef getting in the way of progress and advancement of the culture. it’s kind of pointless to even draw regional distinctions about hip-hop when you consider how much cross-cultural influence benefits artists, fans and the music overall. look at Dilla, a Detroit dude, producing both Tribe and Pharcyde. Or Ice Cube with the Bomb Squad, best album he ever did. Or Del on Definitive Jux. How about Dizee Rascal with UGK, that track was fire. Some of the best hip-hop has come from region’s “off the grid,” like Brother Ali, a Minnesotean. Dont front on Seattle’s Mix-a-Lot because e’eybody and they mama was geeking to “Posse on Broadway.” And what about Mystikal’s “The Man Right Chea,” Outkast’s “Hey Ya” or 3-6’s “Stay Fly”? to me that stuff is just as key as Wu-Tang, Nas, old-school $hort Dog, or the Coup. the point is the focus should be on making the best music possible, not regional set-trippin’…

  49. “The point is the focus should be on making the best music possible, not regional set-trippin'” – E-Scribbla

    I hate to spoil E-Scribbla’s last post which is befitting of the final word on this string, but I had to say that his last line says what this is all about and I am sure everyone that weighed in on this subject can agree on this one thing.

  50. steven edwin says:

    hey Robert Jr. James McClendon, been searching for you for a while, steve edwin, you protege on the base in tx. 8609224822 or icemagz@yahoo.com. hope all is well with your family.

  51. It wasn’t just L.A. New york wouldn’t even show the Jersey artist love back then.

  52. Im pretty sure tim dog did start the whole east v west thing. Didnt fuck compton come out in 92. Cos the bad boy deathrow beef didnt start till 94 didnt it? Cos the pac v big beef started in 94 if im correct

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